The Pros and Cons of Songs Which are Long...

[RobRideout]

So Flying Machine has been doing a thing recently. And it wasn't long into the thing-doing that I decided that I'd set some rules for myself very early on in the process, and I remembered that one of the First things I decided about Worlds Apart was that I wanted it to be longer than Dream Theater's A Change Of Seasons (23 minutes). In the end I ended up with a rather lovely 26 minute affair that I was super happy with and now my scope has taken on new heights. The new album is currently planned to consist of a single 1 hour long song. Or piece of music maybe, it can scarcely be called a song.

My question to you then, Frost*ies, is:

Do you thing anyone would listen to it if it were an hour long?

My argument is that I'm really not writing it to be consumed by anyone else, and I really think I'd rather have a single dirty great 1 hour long thing than splitting it into separate tracks, because then it's no  different from any other album where the songs go into each other. But my drummer is insisting that it's a thoroughly terrible idea.

Opinions?

[JakeWorrell]

Here's how I'd imagine it would play out for me:

• I'd listen through from start to finish
• During listening I'd hear a few bits that I *really* liked
• I'd skip mid song to listen to those bits
• I'd wish it was broken up into tracks, even if it was presented as a 1 hour song

Milliontown for example, although it is one long track, does have sections designated in the liner notes; One Underground, Only Survivors etc. When I first got into it I kind of wanted skip to Only Survivors a few times but couldn't without faffing around. I listen to it all in it's entirety but then it's "only" 26.5 minutes long.

I'm thinking of CDs mostly here but if I was listening to it in the car I would like it if it had a few separate tracks so that once I got to my destination I could go and do my thing and then come back to carry on where I left off without having to seek through 30 minutes of music.

I'm not saying these should be separate songs, but perhaps separate tracks with no silence between them.

To be fair though I'm not sure I'm the most typical prog listener, I'm quite a casual listener these days.

[D S]

Well, Mike Oldfield's Amarok is 1 track and is exactly 60 minutes long.  The live version of Transatlantic's The Whirlwind is 80 minutes long and just 1 track!
I know what Jake means though.  I took the live Whirlwind off my iPod as I would always skip it when it appeared when on Shuffle - I'd rarely have 1 hour and 20 minutes spare to listen to just 1 song.  The studio version of the Whirlwind however is also one continuous piece of music but the CD is broken down into chapters which does allow you to skip / access specific sections more readily.  Otherwise you have to hold the fast forward / reverse button down for a long time with these sort of tracks.

So that is maybe the compromise.  Tell your drummer it is lots of individual songs, add in chapter breaks for easy access but have it as 1 continuous piece of music. 

[Mikey]

Do you thing anyone would listen to it if it were an hour long?

All depends what it is. Handel's Messiah is mind numbingly dull except for the odd bit here and there, but there can't be many that don't like the Hallelujah Chorus.

If it were an hour's worth of Milliontown then bring it on

[RobRideout]

Yeah, I mean I AM planning on breaking it into chapters or sections or whatever, but I think at the moment I'm against the idea of making those different tracks on the album. I think it might be a super duper self-indulgent thing of wanting the actual file to have a big intimidating number when it plays in an MP3 player or whatever. But what is prog, if not self indulgent? Hm. It's a head scratcher. Quite a way off having it done, anyway, but it's some food for thought. It depends how people actually listen to music these days. Cds in a car or MP3s or so on.

[Mikey]

But what is prog

Dull it would appear. There were only slightly more in attendance at the Lifesigns gig at Fibbers on Saturday (Mr. F. Spasm, may have been sighted) than there were at a second rate Queen tribute band gig. Furthermore, a decent Queen tribute band can fill the York Opera House.
I despair sometimes.
Nevertheless, Lifesigns & Cloud Atlas were excellent.

[tigermoth]

"
My argument is that I'm really not writing it to be consumed by anyone else, and I really think I'd rather have a single dirty great 1 hour long thing than splitting it into separate tracks."   
Well, you rather answered your own question there didn't you. Though the difference of opinion between you and the drummer could be a problem. But then in my experience drummers are generally argumentative gits anyway.  Forgive me, I am in flippent mood today.    But I remember a mate saying to me that he loved Tigers but he thought it should be split in to tracks. My outer response was to smile and say "Er ... maybe. I'll think about it.". My inner response was, "No absolutely not don't be bloody rediculous".  I suppose I'm saying that in writing, especially in prog writing, if you start worrying too much about what other people want your creation to be, then you'll inevitably start to compromise on your original plan.  I admit there are some long songs by some bands which I kind of wish I could skip through, but generally I think if a song was written a certain way, then in an ideal world that is how its supposed to be enjoyed. Million Town and Supper's Ready are just two examples where I wouldn't skip any of them.  The same can sometimes go for albums, like I find it very hard to tear myself away from War Of The Worlds once I've started.  Though of course in reality many of us jump from album to album these days.
I think the compromise if it doesn't bother you too much is to make it one long continuous piece, but to have track divisions, at a few strategic points and to make it clear that it is one piece and should be listened to as such. This of course will mean that when people eventually listen to it on their ipods in shuffle mode, they will be in the middle of one of your track divisions thinking "Oo this is nice" or some other superlative, when all of a sudden it will come to an abrupt stop mid chord and shuffle on to something else by someone else.  It's either that, or have one long track which will only get listened to by those who have the dedication to your music and the time with which to listen to it. After all, those are the fans you want the most.
So, I'd say that if you can reconcile with your drummer, then go for it if that's how you see it and want it to be.

Hope that helps. Lol

On another note, am I thinking of the right band? Didn't flying machine do a competition where soloists submitted solos? If so I submitted, but never heard what the outcome was.

[D S]

On another note, am I thinking of the right band? Didn't flying machine do a competition where soloists submitted solos? If so I submitted, but never heard what the outcome was.

Ditto! 

[RobRideout]

You are indeed thinking of the right band! I did a few things as promo for the Roots album, where the intention was to give away a free copy of the album, but due to some personal issues it kept getting delayed and delayed and I suddenly found myself in a position where I didn't really WANT to release that kind of stuff anymore. Sorry, I didn't realise anyone was keeping tabs on it! I think most of the solo entries are up on the Soundcloud page to enjoy. I do like doing the little solo competition things so I might even do one for the album because I like seeing people's interpretation of the backing tracks

https://soundcloud.com/flying-machine

[tigermoth]

I remember hearing the solos submitted. All sounded pretty cool. I stil have mine somewhere. Lol

[tigermoth]

Listening again now. Must say you and I rocked DS. Lol. ... Well there was three of us and we all rocked. Bloody hell that's over a year ago ain't it?

[gr8gonzo]

Like Mr. Moth said, it's your song, your vision, your call. If you're not doing it for others, then you don't need anyone else's approval. If you want an hour long track, you can always do it that way. If you feel so inclined, you can do a second version broken up into sections to appease those with shorter attention spans. Maybe include a cover of "Pop Muzik" by M as an album only B-side on the hour long version so people will HAVE to buy it.

Personally, I'm not as big a prog head as some would think and typically will not listen to anything longer than 16:43 (there are exceptions, of course). If the song warrants the length, go for it.

[owen]

From a technical point of view that's a bloody big file you'd end up with (and I mean the original master file). Does that matter? I do tend to listen to albums from start to finish, but if interrupted I tend to restart the last song. What would it add, from an artistic point of view? Who's the boss? I doubt it would impact on your sales, I'm sorry to say. But if done live you'd have to do the lot or not at all, unless you're prepared to edit

[tigermoth]

Good points. I guess ultimately you really have to think it's worth it and all for the right reasons. IE, not doing a big long song for the sake of doing a big long song. That sounds like I'm back pedaling from my previous viewpoint I know. But not so. If that's what you want to do and it feels right and is justified for you then go for it.   Oh and "16:43", lol not too specific then. I take it that's the length of a particular track. Personally I won't go a second over 14:55. Lol

[gr8gonzo]

Oh and "16:43", lol not too specific then. I take it that's the length of a particular track.

Indeed. 16:43 would be none other than The Dividing Line.

As a songwriter myself (not prog, mind), I've never gone into a song intending to write for a certain length. I always let the song dictate when it should end, even if that means 2 minutes.

As far as the live performance question, it's absolutely acceptable to play segments rather than the whole piece. Sure, Dream Theater will be performing their new 34 track album in its entirety on tour, but in past years, they've played just parts of A Change of Seasons and "Puppies on Acid" (aka the intro to The Mirror). Genesis was renowned for playing montages. Any band with long songs has the task of crafting a set list that will fit into the time allotted. I imagine a Transatlantic concert is a hellish undertaking: "one hour show? which two songs should we play?"