Mainstage 2

[gav]

Hmm....if even two laptops are not enough to be trusted then you know where this is leading don't you....?
....one laptop per keyboard key....
....et voila....Jem's invented the LappyTron!

So, to expand on that idea, that's one set of laptops or 'lappytron' for each keyboard setup, so we're probably talking a good seventy odd 'lappytrons' at this point for the average Frost* gig, not counting the extra lappy's needed for keys producing more than one note at a time...

...and then you need to multiply the number of 'lappytrons' by two incase one single key breaks down...

Gav: "So Jem, what are those fifteen articulated lorries for then?"
Jem: "Oh, that's my keyboard rig."
Gav: :shock:

[Pedro]

[dtscape10]

JEM,
     When you used the Fantom X7/X6 for your gigs did you find any problems with effects etc. (ie. did you not have enough effects to obtain the sounds you wanted) or did you find ways around it?
Which would you, personally, recommend as a stand alone instrument (Fantom X or Fantom G)?

I'd like to get a G7, as you know, but after reading some discussions I somehow get the impression that the scope for quality sounds (due to srx boards etc.) is better on the X..... Do you agree? I know you mentioned the fact that you use the X6 for your dayjob but is it an overall better choice? Or is the screen, extra effects, 8 sliders, usb memory stick transfer speed, Live mode, audio and midi through usb worth the extra outlay?

[dtscape10]

I've just noticed that JEM is selling a Nord Wave on SOS....

Another plan down the drain!!!!!  :lol:

So what is the next plan?

[LeonH]

Hi Jem

I stumbled across your music due to your Fantom G tutorials funnily enough. Been digging Falling Down. I laughed when I saw you're leaving the Fantom G and coming across to MS2, as I have wondering about using the Fantom G with MS2. I use MS2 live every week for rehearsals and have played gigs with it and it works fine. Been using it pretty much as my sole sound source live for a couple of years now. My hardware sort of got phased out over time. Haven't had too many problems. I have a gig coming up soon and have been setting up patches with splits and layers this week. The downside is I've had a hell of a time getting a decent 61 key MIDI controller for it though (my old synths I was using as controllers have died recently). I've bought and returned various models of these new MIDI controllers due to manufacturing defects (sticky keys, broken keys, keys not transmitting velocity properly, chassis splitting open etc). A real pain. I have an Akai MPK 61 at the moment so I'm going to see how that goes for a bit. I've thought about getting a new or recent synth as they're much better built, have proper actions and could be used as controllers. I came across the Fantom G, which is how I discovered your good self. It looks very good. The fact it can work as an advanced MIDI controller and Audio Interface and also that it has a sampler make it quite attractive. I guess I could use it standalone and with MS2/Logic, depending on the gig. I notice you said you think the presets are a bit average. I guess MS2 will always kill a workstation sounds wise due to it's openness (soft synths, multilayered multigigabyte pianos anyone?) I get a bit put off buying one as I can't see myself using the sequencer or any of that which is why I swore against buying a workstation a few years ago, but on the other hand I'm starting to see it being ideal as a live controller, and also for standalone use. It seems though the Fantom G has a OS that makes workflow easy and you have to recreate all that in MS2. Given that though, you can pretty much do anything with MS2. The downside to MS2 compared to your setup with just the Fantom G6 is that with MS2 you need more stuff ie laptop, audio interface, controllers etc. and you have to get all the bits from different manufactures (software and hardware) to play nice together, but once you have it settled it's very flexible. To be honest it's been pretty stable without much effort. Also the user needs to know the limits of the computer as to how much it can process at acceptable latency, but thats the same as using any non DSP accelerated DAW. But the MIDI controller issue is a problem, and reading around the net it seems to be an issue something people who actually play have. I see you've already sold your Fantom Gs. What are you thinking of using as a controller?

[Pedro]

Welcome to the board!

[MarkOneMusic]

Well, this weekend will see me using Mainstage in anger for the first time... So I'll let peeps know how that goes.

(Well, not actually in 'anger' as this is an all day music workshop at a Church, and I'm unlikely to be angry )

[MarkOneMusic]

...The downside is I've had a hell of a time getting a decent 61 key MIDI controller for it though (my old synths I was using as controllers have died recently). I've bought and returned various models of these new MIDI controllers...

Yeah, What is it with this?  I've been looking around for months for a decent master midi controller, and they all seem to be complete pants these days.  I auditioned the Novatition thing, 'cause I liked the idea of automap and the displays, but the action was horrible, examples from Edirol and Cakewalk feel like toys, and don't even have aftertouch.  The M-Audio Axiom feels nice action-wise, but the casework seems a bit fragile. (Don't know about the pro version though - that looks quite nice)

I have yet to try an Akai (Quite like the look of that, I must admit) or the CME (But I have heard about reliability issues with them - Though Neal Morse was using one on the transatlantic tour this year)

But CME is the only one of the bunch doing a 76 note controller...  What is *that* all about?

All the studiologic stuff is permanently "out of stock" at DV so I'm guessing that there is currently no UK  distributor.

It just seems that pretty much everything being made is geared to the bedroom studio market, and robust giggable, serious workhorse controllers are just not vogue.

[Pedro]

Rob Reed uses 3 M-Audio Axiom 61s (I think) in his live rig.
I don't know how he feels about them in terms of build quality, I'll endeavour to find out.

[dtscape10]

Glad to see I'm not the only one with issues on midi keyboards!!!!!!

I too have looked vigorously for a 76 key midi keyboard with no success (apart from CME stuff which, as stated previously, is not reliable by all accounts). Neal Morse had problems with his setup at a couple of the shows.. I think it had something to do with the MacBooks overheating and shutting down (but I could have mis heard that so don't quote me on it).
I looked at using a MacBook pro along with a midi keyboard and seperate sound card.... As much as the idea of fully expandable appeals to me I had a few major concerns...

1. Could I trust the audience in pubs/clubs not to spill a drink over my laptop?
2. Could I trust the audience not to nick it whilst its left on stage (if the venue has a stage that is)?
3. Could I trust myself not to drop the Mac?
4. Latency issues depending on what softsynth I use (the big ones may eat away at the cpu)?
5. Can I afford the spec that I need(I wanted the top of the range stuff to ensure stability in the other areas)?

So I chose not too.....
For now anyway!!! I'm going for a Fantom X7 or G7 purely to use for samples and loads of the other gadgets. This, along with my Triton Classic(moss board fitted) will fullfill my needs!!!!





I hope!!!! :?

[LeonH]

Pedro: Thanks!

MarkOneMusic: Seems like the MIDI controller thing is frustrating people! Fully agree they're being made for the bedroom studio. These things are so powerful yet so poorly built! Seems crazy to consider buying something as full on (and expensive) as the Fantom G, just because I need a decent MIDI controller, but as far as I can tell, it and the Motif series are the only boards around that are well built, have a flexible enough MIDI spec and enough physical controllers and have the ability to act as an audio interface.
I tried the Novation SL MK2 as well and while it was the most flexible generic MIDI controller of the lot, the build quality really let it down. Very bendy plastic and coming apart at the seams. I really liked the M-Audio Axiom Pro, the hypercontrol intergration with Logic was brilliant, and was a good MIDI controller but again, the build quality is a letdown, its a solid unit but the keys were sticky and also had other faults. The Akai is better built than the other two. It has metal base with a hard plastic top face. The keyboard is a bit heavy and stiff, I'm still not 100% comfortable with it yet, but it's not bad and may suit some heavier players well.  When I first got it though it needed a warranty repair as one key had a rubber contact was faulty. So I have had a shocker of a run. I have a friend who has a CME and says its MIDI over USB is unrealiable. Another friend has an 88 key Studiologic for studio work, and he loves it but it's 35 kilos. All this is a pain beacuse MS2 is really good and very flexible. My current live set has splits and layers between Arturia JP8v synths, NI Pianos, Logics clonewheels and EP modelling, Fx that are convulution reverbs, tape delays etc. But getting the physical interface right is a real challenge.

dtscape, here's my take on your concerns about using MS2.

I've haven't had any issues with the computer going down after a few gigs and heaps of rehearsals over the last year or so.

1. Always an issue. I have avoided it so far after a few gigs!
2. A COMPLETE issue. You end up watching your laptop bag like a hawk, or getting someone to mind it before you setup and get it away somewhere safe when you finish.
3. Glue it to your hands :-P
4. Generally OK. I have a 15" MacBook Pro from 2007 and can run at a 128-256 sample buffer. Managing each instruments polyphony and sharing FX help.
5. The minimum is a MacBook Pro, but they are cheaper than ever. These days I'd go for the 13".

I've been wondering about using the G as a big sampler and sampling my softsynth patches for when I don't want to take the computer. Apparently Chicken Systems Translator can translate into Roland Fantom format, so maybe could get my EXS samples into it. If Roland relased some new ARX boards, one that was based their new V-Piano and the other VA, I'd really be up for it. It baffles me that a computer can do great sounding VA's and clonehweels etc, yet these big workstation keyboards can't. I'll probably stick with my setup for now and see how it pans out.

[dtscape10]

Thanks LeonH.... and Welcome to the board!!!!

It's a very viable option but the lack of quality keyboard controllers is a real issue.... Unless you have a modern upto date hardware synth (XS or G) then you'll always be lacking something. To be honest you can always get a basic controller (Edirol/Roland PCR800.. doesn't seem to bad for spec) and get a behringer bcf2000 ( just a few more controls)

But then again I would really like a 76key!!!!!! Typical!!!!!

What soundcard do you use?

[Jem]

Well here's the bloody irony. I have literally spent DAYS now researching into Fantom replacements and I am fast concluding that it is both simpler, easier and less hassle to just buy another G6 or G7 and gig that. 1 keyboard, 1 stand, 1 plug socket, 2 outputs. Job done.

With Mainstage, it'll be 1 power socket for the lappy, 1 for the backup, 1 for the mixer, 1 for the midi keyboard, then 6 audio outputs for the keyboard and Motu's, 2 stands, bags everywhere, external drives...Firewire cables...stress.

Bearing in mind the gigs are 6 months away yet and I'm only just starting to program on Mainstage. It does seem a little bonkers to drop what I know works, rip up all my previous months of  programming and start all over again on a platform I don't fully trust.

That said, fortune favours the brave.  

[Jem]

And you're right btw, why do all dumb MIDI controllers have such SHITTY action??

[EvilDragon]

And you're right btw, why do all dumb MIDI controllers have such SHITTY action??

No, sir, not all of them. Novation X-Station has great action (and a VA engine to boot), so does E-MU Xboard (but I haven't seen a 61 key version of that). Fatar/Studiologic also has nice synth-weighted keys, but to tell you the truth, the best modern synth-weighted action (IMHO) is on Korg M3. Especially that aftertouch! Blimey!