List your top picks here. We can take metallica's death magnetic as a given, though the interview I read with the mastering engineer says that the mixes were already slammed when he got them.
Arjun Lucasson's second Space Metal album. And I really wanted to love it too... Some great stuff and massive guitars, but I can really hear the compressor pumping
Porcupine Tree - The Incident. Not sure exactly what it is, but that album seems really fatiguing and starts to grate. I have not yet managed to make it all the way through. Still a huge fan of PT and SW.
Panic at the Disco - I Write Sins... As mentioned in another thread.
Not bashing the bands, or the songs. Maybe it is just me and I got a little bit sensitive to this stuff after doing a bunch of mastering myself. I think this board has some discerning listeners, so I'd be interested to see opinions.
/R
I don't know what to add to this, as I rather like a modern production and pumping beating compressors. Of course, it CAN be bad too.
I'm yet to hear an album that I felt the mastering detracted from the music to be honest. I do agree that retaining dynamic range is generally a good thing but sometimes (particularly in electronic music) slamming the bejeesus out of it is what the doctor ordered.
Sometimes a large dynamic range can be a pain; listening to EIMA in my noisy car for example can be a little tricky in places.
I've heard a lot of people complain about a metallica album, saint anger i think. I've not heard that myself.
I think the thing that ruined 'The Incident' for me was that musically it wasn't as good as Deadwing (in my opinion).
Rush Vapour Trails, you are guaranteed to have an headache listening to the album all the way through. Compressed to hell.
Quote from: "Fogeyspasm"Rush Vapour Trails, you are guaranteed to have an headache listening to the album all the way through. Compressed to hell.
Hmm.... maybe that's why I really don't like that album. Always thought it was too "noisy".
I have always wished that "Going for the one" had been better produced or mastered... although I have not yet heard a remaster... if such a beast exists? There is a great song by Ronnie Montrose called "Music man" which I love but it's mastered terribly IMHO.
Quote from: "Rook"List your top picks here.
/R
Oh dear... I am guaranteed to anger Bert so let's hope he doesn't pop his head in. :D
Culprit number one - the Genesis remix/remasters from 2007-2008 (stereo CD versions.) My favourite quote about these from someone on another board.... "Who knew cymbals could sound like glass breaking, and be mixed so loud that they are the lead instrument?" By contrast, the 5.1 mixes are dialled back a tiny bit so that they're at least listenable. I really wish these had been done more in the style of the Floyd / Queen / Beatles remasters.
As for new albums, unfortunately I find them all over the place, even in our lovely field of prog.
I was listening to Martin Orford's "The Old Road" yesterday, great album, but distorted all over the place. The Tangent's "Down and Out in Paris and London" is perhaps even worse, I genuinely thought something was wrong with my copy (perhaps it is.)
I'm going to stop there before I offend anyone who might actually stick their nose into this board... :D
Without naming any specific albums or artists, I am (very) strongly against overt compression as a matter of principle. For me, perhaps because I spend a lot of time listening to classical music and opera, dynamic range and clarity are important and there's nothing worse than shoving everything up against the top rail, just to make it sound loud. That's what the volume knob is for: if used judiciously, peaks can be loud without everything being blended up at 11.
I realise that compression is used to crank up the volume so as to make a song stand out from others on the radio. Of course, when everyone is doing it, it begs the question of whether this strategy even works any more. But for classical music and prog alike, I can't imagine that being a stand-out on radio is important. I'd also venture to say that classical and prog fans may have somewhat more discerning ears than the average pop fan, although given the brilliant production on Matthew Sweet's decidedly pop oeuvre, I'd say that one rule doesn't fit all.
In the end, I want to enjoy music and not be bludgeoned to death by it. Loud is absolutely fine; crashingly loud to the point where you can't pick anything out is not. Quiet is fine too: listen to Mark Hollis' eponymous solo album and tell me that everything needs to be loud to suck the listener in.
I had a fairly long discussion with my mastering engineer on this, and we both agreed that preserving the dynamics makes music so much more involving - And he really aught to know given the significant big-name credits he has. We went for a middle ground where there were still a lot of dynamics, but it doesn't sound too quiet in comparison to other stuff.
Although, when it was featured on The Dividing Line one of my tracks was played back to back with something very very loud, and it did seem a bit quiet in comparison.
But generally, I am happier that we went for the dynamic result rather than the squashed one. YMMV
QuoteAlthough, when it was featured on The Dividing Line one of my tracks was played back to back with something very very loud, and it did seem a bit quiet in comparison.
And therein lies the problem - so much music is now seemingly mixed for radio/streaming that the purpose of mastering looks like it has gone from enhancing the end product to making it 'fit' a certain bandwidth and be as loud as possible. This was the 'explanation' given by Ben Folds when many fans complained about about the original version of his album 'Way To Normal' - subsequently he released a remixed/remastered version and the audio stems so that people could mix their own version if they still weren't happy!!!!
And from memory a lot of the comments about Metallica's 'St Anger' were that the overall production was rubbish - how they managed to make a snare drum sound like they did is still a source of wonder!!! ;)
Quote from: "Trapezium Artist"That's what the volume knob is for:
Hear hear! (No pun intended- honestly)
Quote from: "Brom"Quote from: "Trapezium Artist"That's what the volume knob is for:
Hear hear! (No pun intended- honestly)
Indeed
Quote from: "Trapezium Artist"Loud is absolutely fine;
Loud is very fine. There's a difference between loud and loud though
Also, there's no reason why you can't crush it with compressors while still making it dynamic, by doing it in sections. In mixing we use automation all the time, mastering can do that too. Extra heavy on some loud bits, less on the more open sounding stuff, or whatever you want.
BT even mastered his last album using stems, and the choruses on the opening tracks were mastered on tape, while the rest was done digitally.
Why do I know this? I need to get out more. :|
QuoteIn mixing we use automation all the time, mastering can do that too
This! Though it (mostly) only applies if you are mastering ITB. When in a studio with some nice outboard it is kinda hard not to use the tasty, tasty toys... but yes, when working in the box you can still ride the compressors for dynamics, or even go in and do volume rides on certain sections of the song so you hit the compressor differently. Which all assumes you have a Mastering engineer who cares enough. Seriously, a lot of mastering engineers seem to find a setting on whatever software they prefer (T-racks?) and say "That sounds good, lets stick it on the track." If you are lucky they might check the top and end of the track, a quiet bit, a loud bit and contrast it to the last track.
Man, I hate doing mastering; I avoid it when I can. My hats off to those with the patience to do it properly.
Good call about Vapour Trails, Fogeyspasm. I can't say I noticed the mastering on that one, but it was never a grower, and I think last time I listened to it was before my studio work, so I was less aware of what turned me off it.
Regarding "The Incident", I have noticed that it gets turned off at about the same place each time. "I'm drawing a line, I'm drawing a line, I'm drawing a line, I'm drawing a line...." Though that may be irony at work too.
/R
Quote from: "Fogeyspasm"Rush Vapour Trails, you are guaranteed to have an headache listening to the album all the way through. Compressed to hell.
Yeah, though part of it was in the mixing too... there is a remastered version in the works if it's not already out.
Quote from: "Mordwin"Quote from: "Fogeyspasm"Rush Vapour Trails, you are guaranteed to have an headache listening to the album all the way through. Compressed to hell.
Yeah, though part of it was in the mixing too... there is a remastered version in the works if it's not already out.
Not sure the writing was up to the usual standard either! Definitely my least favourite Rush album - quite brutal and missing the usual light and shade which thankfully resurfaced on Snakes and Arrows. The remixed versions (by Richard Chychi) of One Little Victory and Earthshine on Retrospective 3 are considerable improvements and more Rush-like than the VT versions. I read an interview a couple of years ago with Alex Lifeson where he said they were planning on remixing the entire album (although not re-recording any of it) but I guess that has got delayed by the Time Machine tour and writing and recording Clockwork Angels.
Quote from: "Fogeyspasm"Rush Vapour Trails, you are guaranteed to have an headache listening to the album all the way through. Compressed to hell.
Totally agree with that one!
I'm far from knowledgeable on the subject, but I do know that I hate the "pumping" effect used on basically every boom-tish song in the UK charts (not to mention how awfully boring most of it is). I did have to chuckle at Metallica's St Anger being mentioned, as it reminded me of this abomination:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odVbjYeeCiU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odVbjYeeCiU)
Oh, and I put forward Saosin's self-titled album. In particular, the intro to "Come Close" is ruined by a crossfade from the previous track. :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PookmGJRQcM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PookmGJRQcM)
Just... What is that noise?!?!? ARGH!
Quote from: "LivingForever"Quote from: "Rook"List your top picks here.
/R
Oh dear... I am guaranteed to anger Bert so let's hope he doesn't pop his head in. :D
Culprit number one - the Genesis remix/remasters from 2007-2008 (stereo CD versions.) My favourite quote about these from someone on another board.... "Who knew cymbals could sound like glass breaking, and be mixed so loud that they are the lead instrument?" By contrast, the 5.1 mixes are dialled back a tiny bit so that they're at least listenable. I really wish these had been done more in the style of the Floyd / Queen / Beatles remasters.
As for new albums, unfortunately I find them all over the place, even in our lovely field of prog.
I was listening to Martin Orford's "The Old Road" yesterday, great album, but distorted all over the place. The Tangent's "Down and Out in Paris and London" is perhaps even worse, I genuinely thought something was wrong with my copy (perhaps it is.)
I'm going to stop there before I offend anyone who might actually stick their nose into this board... :D
James just doesn't like hearing the bass on the old Genesis albums. They are, by several light years, better than any previous mix.
Going For the One has been remastered a couple of time I think, but not in the modern idiom using the latest techniques but sounds pretty good.
Vapor Trials was massacred in the mastering just goes to show that bands don't know how to listen. I cannot believe they signed-off on that album.
Quote from: "LivingForever"Culprit number one - the Genesis remix/remasters from 2007-2008 (stereo CD versions.) My favourite quote about these from someone on another board.... "Who knew cymbals could sound like glass breaking, and be mixed so loud that they are the lead instrument?" By contrast, the 5.1 mixes are dialled back a tiny bit so that they're at least listenable. I really wish these had been done more in the style of the Floyd / Queen / Beatles remasters.
Damn you James! I bought these remixed versions of Nursery Crymes, Foxtrot and Selling England a couple of weeks ago and after reading this, I now can only hear cymbals! :lol: (Similar comments I read on here previously about Matt Bellamy alway taking a sharp intake of breath before every line means I can't listen to Muse in the same way anymore - I must be susceptable to suggestion! 8-))
Notwithstanding that, I agree with Bert that they are miles better than the original 1990s versions I have on CD. The bass pedals really stand out with a deep growl now, offsetting the high-end cymbals to some degree. Still, I can understand why Peter Gabriel banned cymbals on PG 3 and 4 now!
To be fair, the Gabriel era ones are the least bad... the 76-82 ones are the worst.
It's funny how differently people can hear things. :D
Quote from: "LivingForever"To be fair, the Gabriel era ones are the least bad... the 76-82 ones are the worst.
Which ones are in 76-82 time?
Quote from: "Mikey"Quote from: "LivingForever"To be fair, the Gabriel era ones are the least bad... the 76-82 ones are the worst.
Which ones are in 76-82 time?
:lol:
It's often hard to tell whether it's poor mastering or poor mixing unless we're talking about re-masters of classic albums (even then they sometimes re-mix as well )
The problem I hear more and more these days is less to do with true 'mastering' by mastering engineers in mastering suites but the common myth that 'mastering' can be done by anyone and is just a case of strapping a multiband compressor and a brick wall limiter to the stereo buss of your DAW or mixer of choice to make it as loud as possible...all the time. That massive difference between professional mastering engineer with dedicated mastering equipment and years of experience as a mastering engineer ( as opposed to a Sound Engineer ) and the 'jack of all trades' - Masterer of none !
Mastering is an art form of its own with a very unique and very different set of rules, gear and experience needed by those few who are good at it
Fats.
Have you guys been over the the Mike Portnoy forums lately? There's been a huge amount of threads on mastering vs mixing etc
Some really heated (and sometimes pathetic) arguments going on.
Each to their own but those saying "Oh I can't listen to x because it's brickwalled/I can hear the limiter/ it sounds like the Bus is late/ I'm making these up/the clippings are all over the new furniture" really do my head in!
The only album I can maybe hear some example of bad mastering/mixing is Death Magnetic (?) it just sounds a bit stuffy....someone will know what I mean.
The biggest argument over there seems to be about Dream Theater's new album A dramatic turn of events with the usual "Can't listen to it/ Can't connect because of the keyboards being to forward in the mix/ Old dream theater was better, even though I complained about those too."
There was this thread, right, about time signatures, yeah, and there was a massive argument, yeah, about time signatures in a pop song. That was a doozy.
Led Zep 2. I had the LP second hand, worn to buggery, and someone invented CD's. When my albums got nicked (25+ yrs later it still pisses me off) I bought one and got LZ2. Dreadful. Turns out the original tapes were damaged in a fire. Even in the state it was my old record made it unlistenable. Jimmy Page remastered the lot about 10 yrs ago and I bought Remasters which sounds proper again. I assume they've remastered the original release, too?
Isn't it the case that some of the early CD versions of Zep have the channels swapped? I've never had their stuff on vinyl so wouldn't know, but I bet that was a shock to a die hard listener if it was true.
I've not really got golden enough ears to know when an album is badly mastered or not, but I do remember Faith No More's "The Real Thing" sounding insanely good in the early 90's in a club setting, so I guess that meant hearing it on CD and pumping out through a big rig. But I've always been surprised by how small it sounds on my own CD, especially compared to other rock records. Maybe it was a case of them maxing out what was expected in 1989/1990 from a rock record, and then subsequent tech allowing for a different audio experience. I remember someone saying on the radio how the Smashing Pumpkins records were early examples of rock with very wide ranging audio. I like a bit of Smashing Pumpkins now and again but can never manage a whole LP however!
Porcupine Tree stuff has always sounded really good to me. Deadwing has some great light and shade on it for example. I think I read somewhere that SW is not fond of super loud records.
Pretty much everything by The Mars Volta but especially the last 3 albums.
The most recent one "Noctourniquet" just does my head in. Not only the mastering
but the music as well. The music of their earlier efforts makes up for it though
especially "Frances The Mute"