Songwriting and avoiding cheese

[Gman]

My other half and I have been attempting to write songs in the evenings in our converted garage. One thing that seems to be cropping up regularly is cheese! Not the pleasant dairy version but the unpleasant over-poppiness that seems to plague us.

The question is - how does one avoid that nasty, cheesy, nambypambyness and write songs that sound 'grown up'.

Are there any tricks of the trade?

We've tried avoiding 'nice' chords (all the posh ones) and stuck to majors and minors, but the cheese still strikes.

Any thoughts??

[D S]

Ah, you need expensive chords...  

I know the problem and am guilty of sliding towards music which is a bit 'happier' or more easy listening than I actually like if I'm not careful.  To get round that, I often go for unexpected chord changes, well away from the traditional I-IV-V type progressions.  Semi-tone shifts can be very effective, as is the 'Devil's Interval' (e.g. C to F#) much beloved of the heavy metal brigade.  Suspended chords are usefully ambiguous.

However, there will be many others on  this forum far better qualified than me to explain the rules of composition!  

[Mouse]

My main problem is lyrics. I want to use the exact right words to express exactly how I feel or what I visualise. If the words don't fit or sound right, then I don't use them. This is why it takes me ages to write lyrics.

Most of the time, i just don't write them and create instrumentals.  8-)

[EvilDragon]

Avoid Iron Maiden stuff like E-C-D. It has been too overdone, it's coming out of everyone's nose.

Use 7ths, 9ths, sus4, sus2, dim chords to make things more interesting

[Pedro]

My main problem is lyrics.

Well I suspect there are some good word-mongers around these parts - perhaps you could invite people to have a go?
Do you have a spare track with a guide-vocal/melody line?

[Mouse]

My main problem is lyrics.

Well I suspect there are some good word-mongers around these parts - perhaps you could invite people to have a go?
Do you have a spare track with a guide-vocal/melody line?

No.  :lol:  For the songs I have that do have lyrics, the melody just came out at random when I put the words to the chords I had. Not very professional/creative, but it's worked so far!  

I have thought of starting a thread around these parts with an intent on generating random phrases and words that could inspire and grow into a full set of lyrics. Maybe a thread of interesting phrases, quotes and themes that people could pick bits from, like a linguistic pick n' mix of sorts.

[Drarok]

Use 7ths, 9ths, sus4, sus2, dim chords to make things more interesting

I wish I knew what all that meant! :cry:

[Gman]

Warning...long post ahead...

My other half is a keyboard player and basically works out chords from the melody. At first I thought it was this 'method' of deriving chords that was at fault but we've worked out a number of quality songs (Frost, IB, Kino) using just the melody to 'find the chords' and then compare our 'method derived chords' to the actual chords. 90% of the time, it's pretty spot on.

So that basically meant that it's not the system we use that's at fault, it's something else.

We came to the conclusion that it's the melodies that are at fault. If the melody is interesting, the chords will work and sound interesting. If the melody is naff, the chords will sound naff and we've created a masterpiece of cheese.

Guess, we've just got to work on writing better melodies!!

Btw - we're happy to use 'expensive chords'...we've found that some chords, sus2 in particular, doesn't have much tonality which is handy at times but too many of them can make a song sound vague (ie there's not a definite maj or min sound to it). Althought at times, this can be a useful thing.

Songwriting...it's definitely an art and there's no right or wrong way (which makes it harder still).

[EvilDragon]

Use 7ths, 9ths, sus4, sus2, dim chords to make things more interesting

I wish I knew what all that meant! :cry:

Let's use a chord with root in C to make example:

C7: C E G B (C major with minor 7th)
C7M: C E G H (C major with major 7th)
Cm7: C Eb G B (C minor with minor 7th)
Cm7M: C Eb G H (C minor with major 7th)

Those would be 7ths.

Cadd9: C E G D' (octave above the root) - this is just a C major with added 9th
Cmadd9: C Eb G D' (as above, but C minor)
C9: C E G B D' (same as C7, but add 9th)

In fact, when you have "add9", that means that you play the basic major or minor chord (C E G, C Eb G) and just stick a D' on top of it. When you don't have the word "add", the full 7th chord before is calculated in, too. So this way you can add 9th to any of above mentioned 9th chords.

Sus(pended) chords are when you swap the 3rd in the chord with a 4th or a 2nd. They are excellent resolve chords to either major or minor chord.

Csus4: C F G
Csus2: C D G

You can add them on top of 7th chords:

C7sus4: C F G B
C7sus2: C D G B

Dim(inished) chord is "double the sadness, add the spookiness". It's when you take the minor chord and then additionally flat the 5th. It also calculates a 7th and is usually called "half diminished"

Cdim or C° in jazz literature: C Eb Gb B (half-diminished)
Cm5-: C Eb Gb (diminished triad)

Aug(mented) chords are taking from the major chord and sharping the 5th:

Caug: C E G#
Cmaj7(?5): C E G# H
Caug7: C E G# B

Etc. etc. etc. There is a lot of info on Wikipedia about chords, start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Chords

Btw - we're happy to use 'expensive chords'...we've found that some chords, sus2 in particular, doesn't have much tonality which is handy at times but too many of them can make a song sound vague (ie there's not a definite maj or min sound to it). Althought at times, this can be a useful thing.

sus4/sus2 rock! They are so ELP-ish

[rogerg]

and a bow to the EvilDragon for a fab post!!  props, sir!

I like this site: GuitarChords for hearing what chords sound like.

[EvilDragon]

I also like to play with the Chord tool in Guitar Pro

[D S]

C7: C E G B (C major with minor 7th)
C7M: C E G H (C major with major 7th)
Cm7: C Eb G B (C minor with minor 7th)
Cm7M: C Eb G H (C minor with major 7th)

H?!  :shock:
That's where I've been going wrong - my guitars and keyboards don't have Hs!  

[rogerg]

C7: C E G B (C major with minor 7th)
C7M: C E G H (C major with major 7th)
Cm7: C Eb G B (C minor with minor 7th)
Cm7M: C Eb G H (C minor with major 7th)

H?!  :shock:
That's where I've been going wrong - my guitars and keyboards don't have Hs!  

heh

good eyes, sir!

in this case B = Bb, and H = B natural.  old skool.  8-)

[EvilDragon]

Sorry people, it's how I've been taught here in Croatia. It's German way to name notes instead of French/British.

Indeed, H = B, B = Bb.

This is important for Bach's motif, which is, what would you know: B, A, C, H Or, in your "lousy" way, it completely misspells his name: Bb A C B

Should I edit my post to reflect the change?

[rogerg]

nah, make 'em read the whole thread!   8-)