Brilliant! I think some of us already had the impression Frost* was heading in this direction some time ago, I know I did.
It makes perfect sense to record and release individual tracks or small clusters of shorter tracks. The GP (Godfrey Play), longer than a single release, but shorter than an EP. TDL was also a perfect illustration of mixing personnel - the usual suspects and hired guns. Jem is like the quarterback of Frost*. He should have an array of players on his team. Wow, that was the lamest analogy possible. :oops:
Is the future collaboration with Nick to be part of a Frost* project, or separate?
I still think it would be cool to have a compilation of Jem's releases over a certain amount of time, or whenever an albums worth of material has been created :)
Great news!
I compare it to what game developers start doing now, with episodic content. Smaller chunks of content, delivered faster. I like it. It's basically what I've always been doing with one project of mine. It is way more fun than taking on a whole album.
But, you'll need the facilities to do that as well. I'm going to record with my band next week, and we'll be recording a few songs, because we paid for one day in the studio, and we want to make the most of it. If I could record all my stuff for free, I would do it song by song as well. :p
But for Frost*, I love the fact that I can listen to a new track every few months, instead of a dozen every 2-3 years.
Quote from: "gr8gonzo"Is the future collaboration with Nick to be part of a Frost* project, or separate?
I dunno. Maybe. Hopefully. :D
Posted this as a comment on Jem's blog entry but might as well post it here:
1) Love your comments on connecting because that is precisely why I keep coming back to this page and have you subscribed on Youtube. I love the fact that you document your 'journeys' and that these documents are also incredibly fun to read and watch. And when the music that comes out of the whole process is so stellar that makes it even a bigger thing for me.
2) I can understand the whole one-track-at-a-time idea and the method of delivery that you propose for these. However, I think the whole idea of having to pay a certain amount to own a file that contains music just seems preposterous to me. Yes, I am a child from the CD age and love to have a physical product in my hand which then gives me the opportunity to choose my preferred method of playback. With a computer file you always have to do some kind of backup thing to make sure you don't somehow lose. My cd's however are securely stored (and I rarely lend people music from my collection so it stays in good condition also) and I can play them at any point in time. But I am not a complete ludite when it comes to the digital age. I use my iPhone cum iPod on an almost daily basis and regularly put new music on it but I hate it when the only option I got is to download. So yes, I really do hope (like you said) that there will be physical product in the future containing the music you produce. When it is of the stellar quality that you seem to offer to us I don't mind to pay a little extra for that.
Like I said in the other thread, good times =D does anything involving Jem really have to be out of the Frost* bracket? I'd pay for anything he feels is good enough to be called Frost* frankly.
As for the music idea, I chuffing love it. Few thoughts though. Would you offer a subscription service? Could I pay twenty or thirty quid to have a years worth of Frost* material? Or would you rather be totally kind of obligation-free and just issue it as it comes to you? Also would you be comfortable with the idea of releasing it all on CD at the end, knowing that we've all been buying it all along; do you feel like it pressurises you to make the CD 'extra' special or do you kind of treat it as a 'here's a cd, its got nothing extra on it for those of you who've been buying all along but for the rest of you and those who want something to hold, here you go'?
I really love the idea and can't wait to embrace it fully =)
There'll definitely be a physical product you can buy either in the form of a CD with the new track(s) on it (probably a limited CD-R run of them to start with just so I can guage demand) and then once there's 70-ish minutes of stuff, an proper CD. Bear in mind that will probably be in a year from now for "the album", maybe slightly more.
A subscription might be one way to do it. It's a 2 way street this whole thing anyway so I totally welcome suggestions and ideas as to what you'd want (within reason! :lol: ).
The subscription thing is something I've done in the past with other artists, although I would venture to suggest much of that material was already recorded and sitting in 'the archives' rather than unwritten.
My only concern with a subscription would be the demand it would then place on Jem and the guys if they were almost 'contracted' to provide a new track every couple of months - would this work with everyone's other commitments ?
I read somewhere recently that the internet age was leading music back to being the culmination of a creative process rather than a commodity, and the resulting product was more often than not better for it - no more album fillers because the record company demand 10/12 tracks. I think this will be the case with Frost* but would suggest rather a £/per month subscription we could perhaps pay a 'retainer' for priority access to the digital product, which would then be paid for upon release.
So say £5 to join the priority list (for which we'd also need a suitably oddball name!!!) and then £1/£2 per track upon release( maybe get 24 hours advance on a general download going on sale???). Maybe also offer list members a small discount on the eventual CD as a loyalty thank you. :?
Not sure how people would feel about this but to my mind it seems a fair way of balancing our desire for new music, against Jem and the boys ability and availability to produce something worthy of the Frost* name without too much pressure to deliver.
All change! It'll be very interesting to see how the Frost* business model changes and develops, and I'll be here/there/everywhere to support it 100%. 8-)
Personally I love the idea of being drip fed Frost*, on an as-and-when-it's-ready type model. And I'll pay a premium for that content. FLAC or ALAC is the preferred format, or both. A physical CD, as the last couple of EPs, is even better. I like the physical-in-my-hand thing. (Ooo Err, Frankie Howerd moment)
An "album" when there's enough for an album just rounds things off nicely. "Here is Frost* Part 3 or 7 or whatever"
I'm not overly keen on a subscription service. That just seems to add to the pressure to put something out. And the danger of that is the quality dropping off. (It wouldn't, this is Frost*, remember ;-))
The ludites might shout "But where is the concept / album 'story' / cohesiveness of an 'album'????? If you can't say all you've got to say in 16 mins, TDL, or 26 mins, Milliontown, I personally think you've taken a wrong turn in Prog-ville, and are heading up Prog-snob Street ;-)
So, no pressure, but when is the next "single" out????? C'mon, chop-chop, pull your finger out......... ;) ;)
Excellent news! But then, I've always been an impatient bugger... :P
And no sooner do you post this, do people on other boards (that shall remain nameless) start posting threads entitled "NEW FROST ALBUM SOON!!!!!!"
(//http://www.meikathon.net/roflmao/facepalm.jpg)
I'm not sure that a subscription needs be tied to a time-frame... it could just cover a certain number of tracks, or a certain length (eg 60 minutes worth), or... pay say £10 or whatever, and get access to each track as it's ready and get a discount on a physical CD at the end of the journey?
I'm sure there will be as many new models for doing this music thing going forward as there are bands... take your pick... I'm sure we'll still gladly pay, however you end up doing it :)
Quote from: "Phrog"And no sooner do you post this, do people on other boards (that shall remain nameless) start posting threads entitled "NEW FROST ALBUM SOON!!!!!!"
(//http://www.meikathon.net/roflmao/facepalm.jpg)
some people are just stupid.
Quote from: "Phrog"And no sooner do you post this, do people on other boards (that shall remain nameless) start posting threads entitled "NEW FROST ALBUM SOON!!!!!!"
(//http://www.meikathon.net/roflmao/facepalm.jpg)
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
It'll be a very short album... ;)
Quote from: "rogerg"some people are just stupid.
Yes, some people are...
(//http://versinox.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/18644_696820493981_13263_38353957_670747_n.jpg)
Well, naturally, I am completely and utterly chuffed to bits to hear this news. :D
From what you say, Jem, TDL proved that when you are doing it for the love of it, you really enjoy it and it shows in the music. When you are doing it because there's someone contracturally expecting an album sometime soon, it can turn into a chore.
Is it not possible that a subscription base expecting a new track sometime soon could have a similar pressurising effect?
I'm not saying I'm against the subscription idea (cash waiting ;)), I just don't want it to become like an obligation, that's all.
I don't care when I get my next fix of Frost* (OK, that's a lie, I want it NOW!) or what it costs (within reason) or how it's distributed. I just want the music! Now! Please?
Quote from: "catherine"I don't care when I get my next fix of Frost* (OK, that's a lie, I want it NOW!) or what it costs (within reason) or how it's distributed. I just want the music! Now! Please?
Yep, obviously doesn't matter how it's arranged, the pressure will be unreasonable! ;)
To be honest, i don't really mind waiting all that much - i should think TDL and TPE should keep me going for a while, but once i've listened to those over and over again for 3 months straight, i'm sure i'll want more! :lol:
:evil: MORE! GIVE ME MORE! :twisted:
It's okay Jem, I'm just kidding :)
:twisted:
I'd like to see Jem open a PayPal account for donations. Even if he never plays another note, I'd still feel compelled to contribute as I don't think I could ever adequately repay him for what he's released already!
I'm totally open to the idea's you are considering Jem. I too would most likely buy a hard copy eventually but
the ultimate for me would be a 24 bit Hi-rez version at whatever sample rate the Pro Tools sessions are at.
As a musician myself, I'm intrigued by the new business model concept. I have a bunch of songs both proggy
and non that I've been slaving away to perfect and though I feel confident of their quality, they just don't
seem to fit together in the traditional album format. I could easily do a 20-30 minute EP of each and channel
them into their own beings. It could also make for cutting out extra 'fluff' that might bore the first time
listener and hopefully not scare them away.
But of course I speak of the fluff factor in my own music. Certainly a 15-20 minute EP of FROST music would be
jam packed. One good thing about FROST* is that there never is one second of filler or fluff regardless if it's
a 2 minute piece or a 70 minute album,paid or free it will be worth every note to me! I'm sure there will
be plenty of us who will support you and the whole band regardless.
I have a question though...how would one go about having stuff mastered? would it be individual tracks/EP's
one at a time,or would it be best to wait and master all at once when it comes time to combine everything
into an album?
Cash ready just tell me how much when and where to pay it, don't care when any music is released or what format it is in id just be happy to know ill get to hear it when your ready to let us hear it :D :D
Quote from: "Pedro"Well, naturally, I am completely and utterly chuffed to bits to hear this news. :D
From what you say, Jem, TDL proved that when you are doing it for the love of it, you really enjoy it and it shows in the music. When you are doing it because there's someone contracturally expecting an album sometime soon, it can turn into a chore.
Is it not possible that a subscription base expecting a new track sometime soon could have a similar pressurising effect?
I'm not saying I'm against the subscription idea (cash waiting ;)), I just don't want it to become like an obligation, that's all.
Interesting counterpoint there Pedders. It could end up being just as stressful as having a record company breathing down one's neck by going on the subscription route. Also, I'm mindful of the potential downside of the Marillion model - everybody chips in to make the album... waits 2 years....and then the album's sh**. :o
That'd piss me off right and proper if I was a fan.
Maybe a simple charge for each track would work better. There could be a subscribers area maybe with additional stuff and a simple charge could apply again to download/obtain stuff from there. Then it's a simple take it leave it choice rather than "Come on boys, I've paid me dosh, where's me product!?".
Interesting...
Quote from: "EVP"I have a question though...how would one go about having stuff mastered? would it be individual tracks/EP's
one at a time,or would it be best to wait and master all at once when it comes time to combine everything
into an album?
There are companies out there that master stuff remotely and send it back to you via email. The other option is to buy the kit and start doing it myself. Seeing as the new Cube will be acoustically tuned and will feature an array of reference speakers, I'll have a far more accurate room to work in. I might send myself off on a course first off.
Actually, this is a good idea. :)
Well, I don't want to come across as the voice of dissent, and I know that I am a product of my age, but for me the *ownership* of the thing is an important dimension. I would miss a physical CD. I have an overflowing iTunes library, a 160Gb ipod stuffed with er... stuff, but it doesn't substitute for my racks of CDs (and doesn't come close to the cupboard full of vinyl)
I'm not going to get into the whole MP3/Lossy compression argument, I am and always have been a bit of a hifi fanboy... I *know* we can go to lossless downloads, and then I won't know the difference sonically, but, there's more to it than that, I enjoy the packaging, the ritual of putting the CD on, the boundary it sets for an album's worth of music, the synergy between the artwork and the music, I'm even sad enough to enjoy finding out what keyboards were endorsed, what drum-sticks the drummer likes, and whose mum got thanked.
Don't get me wrong, if this is the route to market Jem is choosing for Frost material then, I hope it is successful, and of course I will buy it all, but I dunno, it's somehow not the same.
Just call me an old fart, I guess. :roll:
Quote from: "MarkOneMusic"I would miss a physical CD.
If I read it right, you probably won't.
You may have to wait for a bit in some cases but I think the plan includes gathering up tracks onto a CD, periodically.
Quote from: "MarkOneMusic"Well, I don't want to come across as the voice of dissent, and I know that I am a product of my age, but for me the *ownership* of the thing is an important dimension. I would miss a physical CD. I have an overflowing iTunes library, a 160Gb ipod stuffed with er... stuff, but it doesn't substitute for my racks of CDs (and doesn't come close to the cupboard full of vinyl)
I'm not going to get into the whole MP3/Lossy compression argument, I am and always have been a bit of a hifi fanboy... I *know* we can go to lossless downloads, and then I won't know the difference sonically, but, there's more to it than that, I enjoy the packaging, the ritual of putting the CD on, the boundary it sets for an album's worth of music, the synergy between the artwork and the music, I'm even sad enough to enjoy finding out what keyboards were endorsed, what drum-sticks the drummer likes, and whose mum got thanked.
Don't get me wrong, if this is the route to market Jem is choosing for Frost material then, I hope it is successful, and of course I will buy it all, but I dunno, it's somehow not the same.
Just call me an old fart, I guess. :roll:
You'll have to re-read the blog mate. ;)
I'm among those who would pay for the download to get the immediate "fix," and pay again later for the CD as a higher quality "official" release. This was the case for me with Milliontown. I bought it from iTunes and later bought the CD. Perhaps the physical release could have something extra on it (i.e. Frost* Report, bonus track not available as a download, etc., like EIMA SE) as incentive for those who need a shove.
Quote from: "gr8gonzo"I'm among those who would pay for the download to get the immediate "fix," and pay again later for the CD as a higher quality "official" release. [...]
Perhaps the physical release could have something extra on it (i.e. Frost* Report, bonus track not available as a download, etc., like EIMA SE)
Ditto.
Neal Morse has an "Inner Circle" where you pay 10 $ per month. You get a CD or DVD every 2 months and a longer email with pics the other months (sometimes more often). Some of the releases are great, others I really could do without.
So I'd prefer to know beforehand what I pay for.
Jem the mastering thing is an awesome idea, even as an option; if you don't use it it's another skill you have and something that might come in useful one day!
As for the rest of it, I'm pretty much open to whatever Jem feels will work best. If you want to do something like the Inner Circle then I'd be in, although I'd rather not have the secrecy that goes with that particular group personally, I find it a bit annoying and also the fact that nobody else can get the stuff thats released into it. If it was more of a mailing list type of thing where we get a download of tracks every couple of months and maybe a CD or a discounted option to buy a CD at the end, I can imagine that would attract a lot of people, but alongside a standard download service. If you could do it through the Frost* store I'd personally prefer buying it direct from you Jem, making an album on your own will surely be a very expensive process so I'd rather know all my money was going towards that and not to lining others pockets first. If the only way to do that is to release a CD-R to post out then I will pay whatever extra you have to in order to make that happen, I think that would be seriously cool just to get a scribbled on CD-R through the post.
Lots of ideas mate, I hope you've got your head straight cos this is all rather confusing lol
I like the idea of you not really having any solid deadlines, Jem, and i think that for the majority of people these days, the whole downloady thing would work really well, but i would probably be inclined to save my pennies until the songs have taken a more traditional album format and just buy the whole lot then and there- i think the "best of both worlds" idea would work really well, as long as the final album would be easy enough to get hold of.
Cheers Jem :mrgreen:
I like the idea a lot but without the "pay for it upfront" part for the exact reason Pedro described. It would give the same amount of pressure then a label deal.
I don't really care about CD's anymore. I do have a crapload of them and still pick up some to support the artist/band (like Frost* obviously) but honestly I rip them to have on my MP3 player/i-POD and PC and I hardly ever touch the "physical" project again. The booklet is browsed once by me to never come out of the CD trace ever again. I mean it's the music that counts, isn't it?
I'm all for paying for high quality mp3's (320kbps) or whatever format you prefer (offering multiple formats would be perfect) and just pay for those you're interested in. That's the beauty of places like iTunes. One can leave out the songs you don't like (after checking out the low quality version (128 kbps or lower).
Hmmm... you could also fill every "sample" version of a song with madness, like with the "Wonderland Instrumental" track.... screaming SAMPLE!!! every 4.26 second or so. ;)
On second though........ forget that last option. I prefer the "mad" version of that song to the original album version. I would never have to pay for another Frost* song again! :lol:
I love the idea meself.
And yes, I'd more than happily pay/donate/whatever per track.
As for the... erm... concept of a concept album - Simples! We get the pieces of the jigsaw one at a time, and it's only when we get the last piece(s) that we get to see the Big Picture.
The whole's bigger than the sum of its wossnames, innit.
And then it can be released as a physical product. Maybe with a discount to those who've already coughed up for the individual tracks (i.e. helped to fund the project).
Here's another possibility...
I have (as, I'm sure, do several other saddoes) a folder on my 'puter labelled "Creatures of Distinction" into which are bunged the tracks that have been released under that general concept.
That could be an "album" with a finite number of tracks in it. But why should it be limited?
Frinstance. What if, in 2023, having released the "album" (to critical acclaim, of course) in 2016, Jem comes up with a cracking song about a cyborg seagull? It's too late. The horse (of distinction, natch) has bolted.
But a "collection", released as-and-when, piecemeal, has no such limits.
Also: Gotta catch 'em all...
Be careful there Hippo, you know where that leads... 'this song is from album 3.1, the one about a talented but errant tree surgeon called to jury duty in the Maldives; the next is from album 3.4.5, thats the six disc epic about the rotation of chickens in supermarket delicatessens; and the last one is a 45 minute epic to end album 3.2, dealing with the heady subject of making cheese from ostrich milk'.
:shock:
Quote from: "DannySoisSage"Be careful there Hippo, you know where that leads... 'this song is from album 3.1, the one about a talented but errant tree surgeon called to jury duty in the Maldives; the next is from album 3.4.5, thats the six disc epic about the rotation of chickens in supermarket delicatessens; and the last one is a 45 minute epic to end album 3.2, dealing with the heady subject of making cheese from ostrich milk'.
:shock:
:lol:
I've always rather fancied me an ost-er-ich.
Quote from: "gr8gonzo"I've always rather fancied me an ost-er-ich.
have you got one there for my enjoyment?
jem, you make song, me buy. you make bunch of songs, put onto cd, I buy. you make songs, me happy.
Hello to one and all....I'm Brodie from the IB forum . I'm with Roger and his most eloquent summary of the situation. Just an idea for the eventual cd of collected new material, however long it takes to amass; Remaster all of the tracks (to give the collection a common sonic signature) and write some cunning links between each song to suggest that it just might be a concept album after all.
Brodie
hey brodie!! welcome, and grab a biscuit!
However, and whatever form any new material comes in, I will be thrilled! I too am from the days of the whole experience of finally getting a copy of a long awaited new album, tearing it open, absorbing the album in its entirety while reading the liner notes/credits, etc... But given progress and technology, those days are soon to be long gone. So I will change with the tide and take any new Frost music however I can get it.
As for what that content may or may not be....I may get toasted for this opinion, but I am just hoping it is truly Frost in some semblance......I have never been a huge fan of projects in the whole TDL vein in terms of guest musicians or music by committee......guest pan flute solos, special appearance on bonerphone by.....those type of projects. In most cases they lack some of the cohesive elements that make a band a band. I find TDL much less Frosty than the two albums to a degree. (though still very enjoyable). That said......I realize Frost has always been about stretching the limits.....and the one thing I have learned well as a fan is to expect the completely unexpected.....so bring it on!
Quote from: "rogerg"jem, you make song, me buy. you make bunch of songs, put onto cd, I buy. you make songs, me happy.
That about sums it up all right. Thanks for that Roger! :D
Quote from: "rogerg"jem, you make song, me buy. you make bunch of songs, put onto cd, I buy. you make songs, me happy.
Oh Lord, always saying the correct words :P
Is too simple for everyone.
Quote from: "Brodie"Hello to one and all....I'm Brodie from the IB forum . I'm with Roger and his most eloquent summary of the situation. Just an idea for the eventual cd of collected new material, however long it takes to amass; Remaster all of the tracks (to give the collection a common sonic signature) and write some cunning links between each song to suggest that it just might be a concept album after all.
Brodie
Hello mate. Welcome aboard. That is a GREAT idea. Inspired no less. :D :D
Consider it done.
Quote from: "Mickdoo22"However, and whatever form any new material comes in, I will be thrilled! I too am from the days of the whole experience of finally getting a copy of a long awaited new album, tearing it open, absorbing the album in its entirety while reading the liner notes/credits, etc... But given progress and technology, those days are soon to be long gone. So I will change with the tide and take any new Frost music however I can get it.
As for what that content may or may not be....I may get toasted for this opinion, but I am just hoping it is truly Frost in some semblance......I have never been a huge fan of projects in the whole TDL vein in terms of guest musicians or music by committee......guest pan flute solos, special appearance on bonerphone by.....those type of projects. In most cases they lack some of the cohesive elements that make a band a band. I find TDL much less Frosty than the two albums to a degree. (though still very enjoyable). That said......I realize Frost has always been about stretching the limits.....and the one thing I have learned well as a fan is to expect the completely unexpected.....so bring it on!
Yup, I can see that point, but again I'll raise the Gabriel model at 'cha. You've got David Rhodes and Levin and old beardy himself. To me, that's the band. Even back to PG 2, you had people like Fripp coming in and adding cool things. It never felt odd to me that bands could and would be able to do that. Bearing in mind I write everything, produce everything and mix everything, with Mitch as my wingman, I feel the band has more in common with the Gabriel way of doing things than, say, the Genesis way of doing things.
Quote from: "Brodie"Hello to one and all....I'm Brodie from the IB forum .
C'mon Brodie, that introduction does you no justice whatsoever!
For those that don't know, Brodie here is a truly excellent guitarist (that I've had the pleasure to know and play alongside for some 20 years) whose first instrument is bass.. at which he's even more talented. And a Stick-player. And a bloody good sound engineer to boot.
Looks like he can come up with Good Ideas, too :D
Nice to see you here ol' chum.
Quote from: "Mickdoo22"I may get toasted for this opinion
I'd like to propose a toast... :P
But seriously (OK, not very, but seriouslyish)...
Even in its first, "original" incarnation, Frost* was never "just" Jem, JM, TBE & JJ. As we (should!) all know by now, Jonny Boyes did vast amounts of guitar for Milliontown. And there are undoubtedly many others that have been involved along the way that we rarely if ever hear about.
Frost* has a core, yes - currently Jem, JM, Dec, Nathan and TBE (when available). But what's wrong with augmenting that line-up with additional musicians that add something that those 5 can't (or wouldn't do as spectacularly well)?
I mean, I know Dec can sing pretty darned high, but his speaking voice isn't quite what Tara's is. And there's simply no way you can replace an electric violin with a synth and still get that same level of goosebumpitude.
I see Frost* as more of a "project" centered around a core of supremely talented peeps than "a band".
So long as it's centered around Mr G and has a certain "progressive" quality to it (note that I didn't specify "rock" ;) ) it'll still be Frost* to me.
Maybe the "Frost" bit is the core musos and the "*" is for "extras as called-upon".
The electric violin thing is the one thng in the TDL line-up that confused me - isn't JM a bit of a whizzo violinerist when he's not playing guitar, singing, producing records, playing keys, bass and sailing boats?
Quote from: "RacingHippo"Maybe the "Frost" bit is the core musos and the "*" is for "extras as called-upon".
As your sig would suggest, Hippo. ;)
(//http://laurakowalewski.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/assorted-nuts.jpg)
All valid points.....at the heart of it, we know Jem and Mitch are the vision......which make it Frost.
All I know is, I've hardly taken EIMA out of my CD player since it first came out......fecking brilliant stuff!
Quote from: "Jem"I feel the band has more in common with the Gabriel way of doing things than, say, the Genesis way of doing things.
And since it would be hard, in my opinion, to
overestimate Gabriel's influence on music (at least on this side of the Pond) since he went solo.... and concomitantly difficult to
underestimate Genesis' influence..... I think Jem's the one who's got it right.
Well, I agree and disagree in equal parts with what you say. YES, I totally think that if you are making things available via download that they should be LOSSLESS, my whole arguement against downloads is that they are usually such crap quality ( and I don't mean things that have been ILLEGALY downloaded either! Thats another arguement entirely!! ) that when I have downloaded something and decided I like it, I have then gone out and purchased the actual "physical" cd of whatever it may have been and the difference between the 2 is startling! And a nominal fee ao a pay-what-you want approach is fine, although most people that did that for Radiohead paid nothing!
The problem I have with trickles here and there is it's not a coherent piece of, for want of a better word "ART". Todays world of "I want it yesterday" has destroyed and joy I ever found in buying a bands new album. Those days were wonderful..here's a new and shiny 45mins (or whatever) of new stuff, one coherent piece, some moments in time caught forever in one place. So what if you had to wait a year, or 2 or 3 (if your bands name happens to be Rush! ), that's what it was all about, and that's what was so great about the ALBUM. All of that has been kicked up the arse now because everyone has a 10 second attention span and everything is disposable, hence the need for something "new" every few weeks. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against what is being proposed, its just that I think that the album, and for that matter the cd, is far from dead. I will personally rage against the dying of the light..!
The iTunes generation doesn't share our love of full-length albums because they're accustomed to digital music a la carte, so there's no appreciation for CDs, much less vinyl. Liner notes? What's that? But while the physical product generation wants to latch onto what's fast becoming nostalgia and not let go, the fact is the music retail model is in shambles. Today's artists are lucky to break even on a recording project. Luckily for us, folks like Jem are willing and able to do it for the love of it. He can't please everyone, though. No matter what he decides to do, someone will want something else.
Quote from: "gr8gonzo"He can't please everyone, though. No matter what he decides to do, someone will want something else.
Nah....I think we are all in agreement........a new Frost album every couple of weeks or so.........is that too much to ask? :lol:
Quote from: "gr8gonzo"The iTunes generation doesn't share our love of full-length albums because they're accustomed to digital music a la carte, so there's no appreciation for CDs, much less vinyl. Liner notes? What's that? But while the physical product generation wants to latch onto what's fast becoming nostalgia and not let go, the fact is the music retail model is in shambles. Today's artists are lucky to break even on a recording project. Luckily for us, folks like Jem are willing and able to do it for the love of it. He can't please everyone, though. No matter what he decides to do, someone will want something else.
*SPOILER: I wrote a shitload by accident. You can just skip to the end and its summed up, I just couldn't bring myself to delete all of it lol*
I actually think the reason is completely different to this. I'm not convinced that album sales have gone down where albums are being made; what has happened (IMO) is that more singles are being made, and albums are made as packages for singles. For example, Lady Gaga's album was released with 8 tracks. They then released a load of singles and instead of releasing a new album, they rereleased the album with a 'bonus CD' of another 16 songs (these included Poker Face). In pop music its become more of a standard to just download the single. When it only costs what, 50 to 80p it makes better immediate financial sense than blasting 7-12 pounds (or more) on an album when you only really want one track. You hear a track on the radio or in a nightclub and you can get it very quickly and cheaply. Not always totally artistically fulfilling but certainly aurally so.
However, where the album is still an art form (prog, rock/metal notably) album sales aren't really that low in perspective, or perhaps more accurately they are more appreciated as a 'body of work'. We've discussed this quite a lot around here and this news kind of supports it, albums are NOT always fun things to make; and they are very rarely cash cows. More and more it's clear that the most financially beneficial approach to music is to tour like crazy and release material regularly in small chunks; although there might be an album at some point, the approach is to release singles around that, either releasing a few, then an album, then some more, or an album then singles, whichever, all supported by massive touring commitments.
So then the alternative to that is to make an album one hundred percent as an artistic expression. How do you want to do that? Tinyfish have been making their album for three years. I'm sure it will be absolutely fantastic but that is one hell of a commitment, not only to putting three to five years of creative juices into one project but then to saying that potentially you won't make another artistic statement for another three to five years. Jem's proposal leads him to be able to quickly deliver the products of his juices (lol) quickly and with an immediacy that allows him to move on to the next project very quickly; the freedom of expression is there for someone like Simon to release an album every three years and for Jem to release a song or three every couple of months, and its there because the aim is not to make a shitload of money (indeed you might argue that that isn't an option at all).
Wow I wrote too much lol. Essentially, the album is still appreciated as an art form, but less albums are being made as art forms and more singles are being made to fill that gap. The singles are more famous but the albums are more artistically fulfilling to listeners and hopefully artists.
Well....I think that you miss my point. I don't think that the "physical" product IS fast becoming nostalgia. I think that we choose to belive what we are being told by the "industry". I think that "they" want to get rid of cd's and instead go down the "digital download" route, so by telling us that they are on their way out, make us believe and go along with what they say. The actual facts don't show this to be true. Yes, I download stuff, yes, I don't know what I would do without iTunes now (only becuase it helps me get ALL of my music onto 1 device), but I still buy loads of cd's. If I go into HMV anywhere there are still the same amounts of people buying cd's as there ever were, so who's fooling who? I use downloading ( in whatever form it may take!) as more of a try before you buy. Nealry everything I have downloaded I have then gone out and purchased the actual "physical" cd.
In terms of chart success, the main thing that fuels this whole "downloading" thing, well...most of anything I have ever listened to has never bothered the charts anyway, with a few exceptions, so what's changed? To me absoultely nothing.
I still buy CD's. I've just ordered 5 from Amazon. However, as soon as they arrive, I whap them into the hard drive on the Beemer and then they sit in a Sainsbury's bag in the garage with all the others.
It's nice to know they're there. :lol:
Quote from: "Jem"I still buy CD's. I've just ordered 5 from Amazon. However, as soon as they arrive, I whap them into the hard drive on the Beemer and then they sit in a Sainsbury's bag in the garage with all the others.
It's nice to know they're there. :lol:
:lol: It must be nice to have a "hard drive" in your car!!! Us plebs however have to make do with connecting their iPod!! :D
"connecting their ipod"?
You were lucky.... :)
My CD player doesn't have an aux-in and the FM transmitter I have only fits my old white-brick iPod and was crap anyway.
So I have to cart discs with me but I'm happy to burn discs from legal downloads.
Quote from: "Geddy Lee"Well....I think that you miss my point. I don't think that the "physical" product IS fast becoming nostalgia. I think that we choose to belive what we are being told by the "industry". I think that "they" want to get rid of cd's and instead go down the "digital download" route, so by telling us that they are on their way out, make us believe and go along with what they say. The actual facts don't show this to be true. Yes, I download stuff, yes, I don't know what I would do without iTunes now (only becuase it helps me get ALL of my music onto 1 device), but I still buy loads of cd's. If I go into HMV anywhere there are still the same amounts of people buying cd's as there ever were, so who's fooling who? I use downloading ( in whatever form it may take!) as more of a try before you buy. Nealry everything I have downloaded I have then gone out and purchased the actual "physical" cd.
In terms of chart success, the main thing that fuels this whole "downloading" thing, well...most of anything I have ever listened to has never bothered the charts anyway, with a few exceptions, so what's changed? To me absoultely nothing.
I understand what you're saying. Maybe the situation is different in your area. I'm basing my opinion on my own observations. I still have all my CD longboxes waiting to become an art project for my finished basement when I have a finished basement (note to self: buy home with finished basement). What I'm getting at has to do less with the industry than the shifting demographics of the consumer. CD sales continue to decline rapidly. Hell, even VINYL is cutting into CD sales these days. In recent years, I've watched my music store of choice go from 10 long aisles of music (including stuff I'd want to buy) to 10 short aisles of stuff I'd never buy to 5 short aisles of stuff I can't be bothered to even look at. Most of the floor space is now video games.
I still prefer CDs over downloads, but, like most Frost*ies, I was born in the 20th century. My children will likely never buy a CD (though I'll try my best to give them an appreciation for albums). I just don't see CDs being a significant medium in 10 yrs time. I imagine physical media for music and movies will shift from CDs and DVDs to something like thumb drives. Those who aren't just downloading/streaming content direct to their stereos and televisions will just plug it into a USB port.
Quote from: "gr8gonzo"I understand what you're saying. Maybe the situation is different in your area. I'm basing my opinion on my own observations. I still have all my CD longboxes waiting to become an art project for my finished basement when I have a finished basement (note to self: buy home with finished basement). What I'm getting at has to do less with the industry than the shifting demographics of the consumer. CD sales continue to decline rapidly. Hell, even VINYL is cutting into CD sales these days. In recent years, I've watched my music store of choice go from 10 long aisles of music (including stuff I'd want to buy) to 10 short aisles of stuff I'd never buy to 5 short aisles of stuff I can't be bothered to even look at. Most of the floor space is now video games.
I still prefer CDs over downloads, but, like most Frost*ies, I was born in the 20th century. My children will likely never buy a CD (though I'll try my best to give them an appreciation for albums). I just don't see CDs being a significant medium in 10 yrs time. I imagine physical media for music and movies will shift from CDs and DVDs to something like thumb drives. Those who aren't just downloading/streaming content direct to their stereos and televisions will just plug it into a USB port.
That's just my point. CD sales AREN'T rapidly declining. We are just being told they are and then given less room in stores.The books are being cooked and WE are being decieved. Record stores, or should I just say HMV as it is THE ONLY high street record store these days, is forcibly shifting the demographic away from CD's. At first it was to DVD and now even DVD is getting less space as BLUERAY is FORCED upon us.
WE have to decide if WE want the physical item to vanish and STOP it from happening. FIGHT for what we believe in. The idea of only being able to download or stream ( that thought makes me feel sick! ) truly will be THE END for music. Don't take my word for it though, lets all sit around and do nothing and then moan when it DOES happen. It'll be a little too late then.
Quote from: "Pedro"My CD player doesn't have an aux-in
Neither does mine.
So I use one of these (//http://www.caraudiocentre.co.uk/product_m-connects2-ctvvgx004_p-22058.htm), wired up to a 3.5mm jack bodged into the fascia next to the radio.
(//http://www.nexxia.co.uk/readpicture.asp?filename=CTVVGX003_small.jpg)
They do them for various car types (//http://www.caraudiocentre.co.uk/category_m-aux-input-adapters_c-546.htm) and have iPod-specific ones too (//http://www.caraudiocentre.co.uk/category_m-apple-ipod-car-adapter_c-545.htm) which do extra Neat-O things.
See also here (//http://www.nexxia.co.uk/products.asp?section=Car%20Audio&category=Connects2%20CD%20iPod%20Adaptors), which seems cheaper on the whole.
Quote from: "Geddy Lee"That's just my point. CD sales AREN'T rapidly declining. We are just being told they are and then given less room in stores.The books are being cooked and WE are being decieved. Record stores, or should I just say HMV as it is THE ONLY high street record store these days, is forcibly shifting the demographic away from CD's. At first it was to DVD and now even DVD is getting less space as BLUERAY is FORCED upon us.
WE have to decide if WE want the physical item to vanish and STOP it from happening. FIGHT for what we believe in. The idea of only being able to download or stream ( that thought makes me feel sick! ) truly will be THE END for music. Don't take my word for it though, lets all sit around and do nothing and then moan when it DOES happen. It'll be a little too late then.
Are you claiming conspiracy? Betamax was superior to VHS in every way, so I don't doubt that such things happen, but what's HMV to gain by offering less product if it's truly profitable? If their CD racks were emptying every week, they'd get more space. It's all about demand and the technological evolution of media. I had hundreds of vinyl albums, then hundreds of cassette tapes, then hundreds of CDs. I'm not among the moaners, though. As the format changes, the consumer, sometimes reluctantly, adapts. That said, I'm thrilled that there is a growing demand for vinyl and stores are ordering it more and more. I don't see the same happening for cassettes, but who's to say?
There will always be music. I love and embrace new formats. Kinda hopin' the thumb drive thing pans out.
Quote from: "Geddy Lee"Quote from: "Jem"I still buy CD's. I've just ordered 5 from Amazon. However, as soon as they arrive, I whap them into the hard drive on the Beemer and then they sit in a Sainsbury's bag in the garage with all the others.
It's nice to know they're there. :lol:
:lol: It must be nice to have a "hard drive" in your car!!! Us plebs however have to make do with connecting their iPod!! :D
It is pretty cool I must admit. I should get an iPod though, shoehorning the BMW onto the train is a right pain the arse when I go to London... ;)
Hmm, on the special edition of Black Clouds and Silver Linings, DT released some of the audio files for the tracks for general mixing and playing with purposes. T'would be nice if TDL was released with a load of stuff like that to noodle with, especially since most of the Frost*ies are also techies :)
pwetty pwetty pweaaasseee :D
I have an iPod input jack in my car, though I don't use it much as it sounds like crap compared to my CDs.
Quote from: "gr8gonzo"I have an iPod input jack in my car, though I don't use it much as it sounds like crap compared to my CDs.
Hmmm... well first anything sounds crap in the car especially if you compare it with how you hear in on your home-system. Second, it might sound crap because the quality in which you rip cd's to iTunes is insufficient for your standards.
Unless I miss my guess, you (Jem) have an iPhone.
So you are "with pod" already...unless you are worried about burning phone battery on music.
joke! joke! :lol: Creative license for the Beemer gag! Hello? McFly... ;)
I've got about 9 iPods. C'mon, it's me you're talking about here. :D :D
Quote from: "Jem"joke! joke! :lol: Creative license for the Beemer gag! Hello? McFly... ;)
I've got about 9 iPods. C'mon, it's me you're talking about here. :D :D
Can I have one? I don't have an iPod and I'm seriously considering a go on a proper train soon.
Quote from: "Jem"joke! joke! :lol: Creative license for the Beemer gag! Hello? McFly... ;)
I've got about 9 iPods. C'mon, it's me you're talking about here. :D :D
Of course, sorry Biff, I'll just make like a tree and get out of here... ;)
Quote from: "gr8gonzo"[
Are you claiming conspiracy? Betamax was superior to VHS in every way, so I don't doubt that such things happen, but what's HMV to gain by offering less product if it's truly profitable? If their CD racks were emptying every week, they'd get more space. It's all about demand and the technological evolution of media. I had hundreds of vinyl albums, then hundreds of cassette tapes, then hundreds of CDs. I'm not among the moaners, though. As the format changes, the consumer, sometimes reluctantly, adapts. That said, I'm thrilled that there is a growing demand for vinyl and stores are ordering it more and more. I don't see the same happening for cassettes, but who's to say?
There will always be music. I love and embrace new formats. Kinda hopin' the thumb drive thing pans out.
Yes I am claiming conspiracy!You are right about Betamax being superior to VHS, but that didn't stop them then did it? Betamax was profitable, as it was better and everyone knew it was, but everywhere stopped selling it boecuase the industry made the product hard to get. They are doing the same with CD's. They have put all their money into downloads, which are mostly shit quality when compared to a cd, all you need to do is look at the wave form of a download and then rip a cd to wav or whatever to see the difference.
I'm not against the "digital revolution" I own 3 iPods, but sometimes I think we really have to NOT accept what we are being told. And I truly believe that this is a point in case. THIS IS WAR my friend.
That brings us back to the original comment, that while we buy downloads for that immediate "fix," we still want a quality product and are willing to pay a premium to get it. I'm sure some brilliant mind knows this and is developing the next big thing in music formats that will sound better than anything we've ever heard. Er, I'm hoping, anyway.
Quote from: "Nellie"Quote from: "Jem"joke! joke! :lol: Creative license for the Beemer gag! Hello? McFly... ;)
I've got about 9 iPods. C'mon, it's me you're talking about here. :D :D
Can I have one? I don't have an iPod and I'm seriously considering a go on a proper train soon.
I want one too!!
My mp3 player has to be changed!!
Quote from: "gr8gonzo"I have an iPod input jack in my car, though I don't use it much as it sounds like crap compared to my CDs.
Me too, but actually I'd say it sounds pretty good, or at least as good as the sound from a CD in the same player. I mean, why wouldn't it? It's just using the same amplifier and speakers.
Admittedly, I don't swan around in a super-dooper sound system BMW like Jem: having lived in Germany for a long time, I long since learned to associate them with an ancient Jenny Lecoat line that a car is just a prick with a dashboard :D )
Nope, I drive a Citroen C1 so the sound is well, functional, shall we say. But then again, it is black and does have diplomatic license plates, so ... ;)
iPod stuff in my car sounds like someone's trying to off the band with a pillow. that, and whereas a volume level of 15 is sufficient for reasonable listening and 25 does nicely for rocking out, 35-40 is necessary to achieve acceptable volume out of the iPod jack. If you think otherwise, then you don't know iPod jack.
Well, I agree that you need to pump the volume a bit, but between the volume control output of the iPhone and of my radio/CD player, it's acceptable.
You could always buy a small, battery powered pre-amp to go in the line: plenty of those around.
It doesn't annoy me enough to invest in accessories.
Quote from: "gr8gonzo"It doesn't annoy me enough to invest in accessories.
:lol: :lol:
Quote from: "Jem"Quote from: "gr8gonzo"It doesn't annoy me enough to invest in accessories.
:lol: :lol:
I presume that that's the manic laughter of a gear-head sociopath, whose fingers are never far from the eBay, Amazon, and Synthyporn bookmarks on his browser ;)