I had every plan to plaster my new song with zillions of vocal harmonies and i just cant seem to get anything sounding badass enough, and i noticed watching the 'here is the news' frost* report that the orchestra of voice is a pretty big part of the frost* sound, so is there any advice by any of you experiency types for making unnecessarily big harmonies?
:D
It's a shame the live album's not out yet coz I tackle this very subject on the accompanying Frost Report whilst doing the bv's for The Forget You Song.
In a nutshell, I do it by not autotuning the bv's first of all. AT'ing BV's makes them thinner unless you start tuning them individually +/- 10 cents here and there. But that's deeply tedious.
Then I tighten them all with Vocalign, this is optional although it helps greatly with diction I find.
The other trick is to not do hundreds of the same thing, unless you're after a football terrace kinda vibe. I find 3 takes per harmony does the job for me. But don't just stop at root, third and fifth, try octaves and 7ths and 9ths, pedal notes, whispers even.
The fourth thing, and this is the secret weapon, is to sing each take slightly differently, try going a bit operatic on some takes, or going a bit munchkin on others, try a slightly different accent (yes, really) on some too. Vocalign will take care of the timings so it'll still sound coherent.
It makes for a clear, yet giant sound.
The next trick is keep the instruments out of the way of the vocal frequencies, you'll most likely need to go a bit automation mad for that with the eq's of stuff.
There. My brain is now yours! :lol:
Oh and try mixing some vocoder in as well, but play great big bonkers chords! :D
*re-doubles the want on TPE
Jem said.... techy stuff :roll:
Well I didn't understand much of that, but I'm sure it's the sort of masterclass material that you wouldn't get anywhere else.
And like Pedro said: Roll on TPE! (as opposed to aerosol TPE) :oops:
Quote from: "Jem"I find 3 takes per harmony does the job for me.
That's how John Wetton does the Asia harmonies...and he learned it from Mike Stone, who was the engineer responsible for Bohemian Rhapsody.
Another chap doing absolutely huge vocal choruses is Devin Townsend and it's really exemplified by his latest album Addicted. On board for this album he's got an absolutely stunning singer Anneke van Giersbergen of The Gathering and Ayreon and her crystal clear vocals are stacked up in close harmonies. Gawd - I sound like his flippin' agent! ;)
Another trick he uses is to add noises or other subliminal sounds that can't really be heard in the mix, but reinforce the vocals. I seem to remember Jem's protools vids doing a similar thing with little details like that.
Devin has put up a similar Protools walkthrough :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D5OIyTZM9U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D5OIyTZM9U)
in which he shows all minutae that go to make up the track Supercrush, but you really need to hear the finished track to make sense of it, since Devy's 'tutorial' is a bit more hapazard and random than the one Jem did of Here is the News.
I suppose this really belongs in the Other Bands thread or maybe it's sufficiently techy for Gear Corner. If anyone thinks it needs to be moved (or deleted ;) ) feel free but I thought it added an extra illustration to this topic :D
I'm quite torn about such "exposés", to be honest.
On one hand, yes, it's interesting to hear the processes and techniques by which just a man and his dog (or a man and his cube ;) ) can put together such complex and elaborate pieces of music, bit by bit, from fairly simple ingredients, and I don't for a moment deny that there is huge musical talent, as well as technical skill, needed in order to ensure it ends up sounding wonderful (like Frost*, rather than the dog's dinner that that Devin Townsend track sounds like in its final incarnation).
On the other hand though, I always feel slightly let down when I hear of autotuning, vocaligning, melodyning, and wotnot, as if I somehow can't quite trust what I'm hearing as being fully human, authentic, natural. I mean, I'm no folky-type and I have no illusions that much of the music that I love has indeed been manipulated in some way, either via ProTools today or a razor-blade and sellotape in Eddie Offord's day. But much like with sausages, I find I don't really want to know how it's made ... :shock:
Perhaps that's why live music is so compelling: despite its imperfections relative to the recorded version, it seems to bring you closer to the source ...
Speaking of which, this evening we're off to hear Strauss' "Ein Heldenleben" in The Hague conducted by Edo de Waart ... always good for the (heroic) soul ... :D
[Edit: don't get me wrong, Jem; I hugely appreciate that you share this stuff with us in such an open way. I'm just voicing a wider philosophical concern I have about life, the universe, and everything: must be because it's a grey old day outside ...]
yeah, sorta like finding out that Van Gogh painted by number....
Quote from: "rogerg"yeah, sorta like finding out that Van Gogh painted by number....
whaaaaat??? :cry:
I must say Jem, I really do appreciate these little tech explanations and tutorials. As someone who is fascinated by harmonies, I found it fascinating and very educational. Brilliant stuff! :D
Have you thought about teaching music technology...? ;)
@Roger: Heh. 8-)
Just thought I'd mention, Songs From The Wood by Jethro Tull has some amazing vocal harmonies in it. :)
Prog + awesome vocal harmonies = Moon Safari.
Forgive me if I'm repeating myself... ;)
No autodyne malarky going on here => http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q--hBeDDWBo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q--hBeDDWBo)
(Although I suspect they'd have benefitted from more than 2 mics and some better monitoring!)
I wonder if they use vocalign on their studio recordings...
Edit: here's a better one. With no mics OR monitors :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnAHcez9Hak (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnAHcez9Hak)
Studio trickery t'was ever thus. I blame The Beatles. :lol:
Autotune gets such a lot of bad press. It's no more dangerous than a vocoder. And the world LOVES a vocoder! :D
I love it indeed! Even though the name sounds like the name of a giant japanese robot! LOL
I'd love Vocoders even more if those Martians would leave them alone. ;)
And they were cheaper. In fact, I wish all super brilliant keyboards were cheaper. :lol:
Quote from: "Jem"Studio trickery t'was ever thus. I blame The Beatles. :lol:
Autotune gets such a lot of bad press. It's no more dangerous than a vocoder. And the world LOVES a vocoder! :D
Don't get me wrong, Jem: I'm not against the end results of studio trickery (how could I be, considering the range of stuff that adorns my CD shelves?), but somehow I feel a little queasy about finding out how it's been done. Bit like foie gras :shock:
Perhaps because I have a serious classical / operatic bent, I also feel much more psychically comfortable about bands that can actually (really) play their stuff live, regardless of how much malarkey there was in the studio. In this regard Frost* are up there with the Berlin Philharmonic :D
Then again, Talk Talk never felt able to play their brilliant last albums, Spirit of Eden and Laughing Stock, live, and it doesn't stop me revering them. I suppose I'm a very confused bunny ... :?
Mmmm, interesting thread.
When I were a lad, I wanted to be a recording engineer and producer. I could never find out how to get into it (such was the state of Secondary Modern careers guidance in rural Norfolk at the time) and I never had the confidence in my musical ability (restricted to playing in a brass band with parents who would never let me have a guitar and who listened to approx nothing) to really follow my dream. Thus I ended up working in Financial Services and managing projects for a living. But, even though I'm old and warty and have kids and a mortgage so can't even think about giving it all up, if I had the chance, right now, I'd there like a shot, absorbing all this stuff and learning how to do it.
Thus, I remain fascinated at the inner workings of music production, and it never spoils my enjoyment of the music. In fact, for me, I often find I listen to the production as much as the music and I wonder, how did they do that ?
I reckon, there's as much "art" involved in creating the sounds and the textures as much as playing the notes and on that basis, my enjoyment is enhanced with knowing how it's all done.
I also like looking at the extras on DVD's to see how films are made, for the same reason
Which probably makes me a real saddo :)
I love knowing so much inner workings of these tracks, and I've even managed to use some knowledge gained from Jem on my own tracks.
For the life of me, though, I can't get the hang of mixing tracks so all the instruments come through clearly. There's some dark voodoo involved in that, I'm sure. Heavy-handed EQing without making it sound terrible, putting little pinches in the EQ to allow some sound through the bass guitar, all sorts of magic!
Doesn't stop me trying though! :mrgreen:
My last boyfriend was (and still is...) a singer, and on the occasions I went into the studio when he was recording, I was always more interested in what the engineer was doing.
But then I am a card-carrying geek :P
Quote from: "Drarok"I love knowing so much inner workings of these tracks, and I've even managed to use some knowledge gained from Jem on my own tracks.
I couldn't agree more Drarok!
Just because we know how something has been done, doesn't mean we'll necessarily replicate it exactly, note for note, setting for setting. But for me at least, a little insight into how Jem achieves the end result can help to give a different perspective on my own feeble attempts. I think the really neat thing about these kind of walkthroughs is hearing all the little subliminal bits of audio loveliness mixed into the final track, many of which are too subtle to be audible in their own right, but would be missed if they weren't there.
Quote from: "sawtooth"I think the really neat thing about these kind of walkthroughs is hearing all the little subliminal bits of audio loveliness mixed into the final track, many of which are too subtle to be audible in their own right, but would be missed if they weren't there.
Ooh, yes. I do love finding there's hidden layers in songs that I've never even noticed before. There's a backing vocal singing a different melody in one of the songs I'd never even noticed until I heard the live version where's it's much louder.
Probably also due to the fact I usually have it blasting away in the car, with my own "melody" drowning it out! :lol:
I don't even sing and this makes me want to try making my own parts.
I need to get Vocalign though!
I looked at the prices, and I can't really justify the price for just my little messings about. :(
Quote from: "Drarok"I love knowing so much inner workings of these tracks, and I've even managed to use some knowledge gained from Jem on my own tracks.
For the life of me, though, I can't get the hang of mixing tracks so all the instruments come through clearly. There's some dark voodoo involved in that, I'm sure. Heavy-handed EQing without making it sound terrible, putting little pinches in the EQ to allow some sound through the bass guitar, all sorts of magic!
Doesn't stop me trying though! :mrgreen:
I'm in total agreement.
I love the little tips here and there, I've tried some where I can (I'm only using Logic Express which restricts me somehwat), but I just love recording, mixing and trying to get the best out of my limited talents as I can .. Jems top tips on harmonies will now be put to the test.
Quote from: "Bert"Mmmm, interesting thread.
When I were a lad, I wanted to be a recording engineer and producer. I could never find out how to get into it (such was the state of Secondary Modern careers guidance in rural Norfolk at the time) and I never had the confidence in my musical ability (restricted to playing in a brass band with parents who would never let me have a guitar and who listened to approx nothing) to really follow my dream. Thus I ended up working in Financial Services and managing projects for a living. But, even though I'm old and warty and have kids and a mortgage so can't even think about giving it all up, if I had the chance, right now, I'd there like a shot, absorbing all this stuff and learning how to do it.
Thus, I remain fascinated at the inner workings of music production, and it never spoils my enjoyment of the music. In fact, for me, I often find I listen to the production as much as the music and I wonder, how did they do that ?
I reckon, there's as much "art" involved in creating the sounds and the textures as much as playing the notes and on that basis, my enjoyment is enhanced with knowing how it's all done.
I also like looking at the extras on DVD's to see how films are made, for the same reason
Which probably makes me a real saddo :)
Bloody ell Bert, swap Wales for Norfolk in the first para and that's almost a description of yours truly. Apart from the Brass band - I just drove my dad mad by using his shed to make "Guitars", and your profession, so apart from that.. ;) and.... I totally agree.
I mentioned on the forum a while back when EIMA first came to light the ear sucking panning effect that resides around the acoustic guitar intro and I wondered at the time how it was done. The other day I stumbled upon a free VST (yeah, chepskate as always) effect called a "Classic Auto Filter", and hidden in the presets is a thing called 'auto panning notch', which appears to do the very same thing!
http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-auto-filter.php (http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-auto-filter.php)
Sorry for the rambling post which should reside in the gear section I guess.
Quote from: "Brom"Sorry for the rambling post which should reside in the gear section I guess.
I think it seems quite happy here to be honest, I wouldn't want to move it and make it unhappy. :D
Always wanted to be a recording engineer. Agree with Bert, careers advice in Norfolk was pretty shit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0OzxvClwoU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0OzxvClwoU)
the best thing ever done with autotune...
Another trick from the analogue world is applying varispeed as you record. A lot of DAWs won't do it, although Reaper does (and by fortunate happenstance, that's the one I use :) )
Tweaking the speed up and/or a few cents between takes will give you a much thicker and more varied sound than simply doubling yourself. I've found a combination of this, and Jem's "sing like other people" trick can yield pretty massive sounding choirs without having to stump for the session fees :)
If you don't want to pay for vocalign (and I haven't either), you could always just use your DAW's time stretch/elastic audio equivalent and line the consonants up that way - or even just do the same thing with some nifty cut/crossfade action. Sounds like it would be laborious, but once you get going you'll probably find it doesn't actually take that long.