The shape of prog to come

[TBE]

John Mitchell once came up with the phrase 'tricky rock' to describe modern prog.

For me progressive rock is about pushing the envelope of what rock music is.
It's never been about musicianship for me. The great prog musicians are great because of the way they bring their personality to the instrument. Think of Robert Fripp or Bill Bruford and you can hear in your mind their personality.

As far as virtuosity is concerned prog musicians are nothing next a jazz musician.
I'd like to see Rick Wakeman improvise this through the changes of 'All the things you are' like this

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=GLCGWh-VZhI

That's a real virtuoso in my book.

The musicianship tag is part of the problem with modern prog. It's become about accessible music that displays surface virtuosity, rather than seeking to push the envelope of the rock n roll genre.

What is interesting with Frost on 'Experiments...' is that the album pushes the envelope of what prog fans think prog is. Some proggers can't decide if it's prog or not...

'Songs about time travel? wierd time signatures? mad keyboard solos? tracks that last 16 minutes? Is this prog or not? How can it be when it contains...gasp...HOOKS?'

He He...

[DannySoisSage]

I think Bill Bruford is totally on when he talks about this; his opinion was that the very notion of 'rock' music was incomprehensible in the sense that you write some songs then go out and play them the exact same way for a year, come home, write some more, then go out and play them the exact same way for a year. I think he said to the interviewer 'imagine if we had this exact same conversation every night for the next year in different places across the world, imagine how horrible that would be' something like that anyway.

In my view the onus has to be taken off releasing new material once every two or three years and put onto making it available as quickly as possible. I think you and Jem have spoken about this Andy, Muse have spoken about it, DT too in a sense; they just get into the studio, record some songs then get back out on tour, they don't hang around demoing and arsing about for years and years. The 'collapse' of the music business is overstated IMO, because people are still happy to pay good money for good music. I think we are seeing the collapse of this particular model of selling music certainly. Where it will go I'm not sure. I can certainly see Itunes and the like becoming even more important as artists are able to release new material incredibly quickly to an absolutely massive audience.

I also think there has to be more put onto the live shows. Too many bands are content to wander around with a few lights and play one setlist a tour of old material in any old place that will have them. Dream Theater put on a great visual show, the setlists change up every night and there is even room for improv in a lot of their shows. Pink Floyd were well known in the old days for putting on great visual shows for not much money (then went on to put great visual shows for lots of money!). Metallica are good at this nowadays especially with different setlists all the time. They seem to have pretty much their entire back catalogue ready to go at any one time! So I think the value for money has to come in the live shows. I don't know if anyone has seen the Girls Aloud at the O2 hanging around on the telly recently but WHAT a live show! And it was truly live as well, no miming and pretty much no backing tapes (as far as I could tell). If you can fit some improv in all the better; something fresh and showing some musicianship instead of showing how good you can still play something you recorded 12 months ago.

That was a bit more than I thought I would write  :?

[TBE]

I think Bill Bruford is totally on when he talks about this; his opinion was that the very notion of 'rock' music was incomprehensible in the sense that you write some songs then go out and play them the exact same way for a year, come home, write some more, then go out and play them the exact same way for a year. I think he said to the interviewer 'imagine if we had this exact same conversation every night for the next year in different places across the world, imagine how horrible that would be' something like that anyway.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts at the moment and why I'm bowing out of gigging.
If I'm going to get out and play live I want to be able to improvise, to create something doesn't exist on a CD somewhere. I know fans want to hear an accurate recital but it doesn't interest me, I'm with Bill on that.

As for the collapse of the music business, well we have seen major banks collapse over the past few months. A business that sells what you can get for free on the net won't last long in a recession IMO. We will see....

[RacingHippo]

Eh? What's that then? I drum, but I never did grades or learnt names of things, I just play. I can read drum notation (is it tab, or is it how it's really written?), but beyond that, I don't know a lot other than I can definitely play grade 6 pieces...

I've never had a lesson in my life (which has resulted in 25 years of ingrained bad habits :? ). And I've no idea if I can play a grade 6 piece because I've never seen/heard one!

Doubles - see Andy's YouTube lessons introducing and masteringp 'em.  Very handy for increasing your versatility and opening up a whole range of styles.

[MikeEvs]

John Mitchell once came up with the phrase 'tricky rock' to describe modern prog.

Captain Rock has spoken, here endeth the lesson :lol:

[keithd]

I was brought up during the "prog rock" era but I listen to music that I like and love, I don't care much for genre tags.

I've been fortunate to discover some fantastic new music lately and long may it continue.

Andy, I don't know what the future holds for you but, I wish you a successful 2009 and hope that I'll see you live at some point in time in the near future.

[Tricky]

John Mitchell once came up with the phrase 'tricky rock' to describe modern prog.

Captain Rock has spoken, here endeth the lesson :lol:

Tricky Rock  :lol:

Ithankyew

[Ash]

I am in the 25% of this forum (I actually think it is closer to 5%) that has no idea about music - according to friends and family, that is why I like Frost*  

Actually I think that not knowing what the hell 7/8 is means that I just ENJOY music instead of thinking wow that was a tricky chord.

I am with TBE on the live stuff - some bands perform so perfectly and without any interaction that I feel very disappointed about wasting my money when I could have listened to the CD at home.  (Manic Street Preachers zzzzz is my prime example of concert dullness) I like a bit of improv otherwise what is the point of a live show?

EDIT

But completely improvised is not fun, I like things to differ but I like the artist to know what he is playing beforehand.

[J Jonah Jameson]

Hi Andy, interesting discussion.  

This pretty much sums up my thoughts at the moment and why I'm bowing out of gigging.
If I'm going to get out and play live I want to be able to improvise, to create something doesn't exist on a CD somewhere. I know fans want to hear an accurate recital but it doesn't interest me, I'm with Bill on that.

As for the collapse of the music business, well we have seen major banks collapse over the past few months. A business that sells what you can get for free on the net won't last long in a recession IMO. We will see....

Doesn't make the presentation of an accurate recital any less valid though, does it?  I thoroughly enjoy the bits of improv we do in Frost, and we're up for more, so that's no reason to stop.  

On the general point, either way, let's face it, there's not much improvisation in classical music, or opera but no-one would therefore say that whole genre was pants because of that.

As a verb, prog is surely purely a way of doing something - arranging music, songs to make them more tricky, or interesting, or whatever.  You could have progressive reggae, or progressive salsa if you like.  

A statement saying a band is progressive is hard to hold up to scrutiny.  Close to the Edge is a progressive song arrangement, but Wondrous stories is a pop song.  King Crimson play prog, and improvise live, but Matte Kudesai is a pop song.  I can seee Celine Dion playing it right now..

And as for the collapse of the music business, like the financial system, it'll just change.  People will still be making a living via business out of music - you certainly will, and amen to that.

Anyway, I thought you said prog is crap?!  

Love ya!

JJx

[Geetar]

Improvisation carries risk-you might do something astounding...

When Holdsworth was briefly in Level 42, Mark King would jump up and down first in delight, then fury-  Allan would improvise something King thought was brilliant, and would ask him to repeat this on the next live date. Something along the lines of "Why on earth would I want to do that ? That happened because I wasn't playing something we'd agreed on beforehand." was Holdsworth's usual response, according to his friend Steve Topping.

Or you might not....

Bill Bruford was playing one of his duo gigs (I think it was at the Bass Clef) a couple of decades ago with Patrick Moraz. It was largely improvised, and going rather badly that night, as these things sometimes do.

We were all feeling a bit sorry for the train-wreck that was their (and particularly Bruford's) performance that evening. A drunk heckler near the back was giving BB a hard time, and eventually, after one cat-call too many, Bruford stopped playing and stood up. He looked straight at the heckler and said in a very loud voice: "There's a drum stool and a pair of sticks available right now, Sir, if you think you can do better."


But after the hobbits and folk like Wynton Marsalis are done, certainly contemporary music needs to learn to breathe again. It's been looking kind of cyanotic (pace miles Davis) for too long.

And as an edit: JJJ- I think it would be a different story if it was only ever one orchestra under one conductor- or one opera company- performing one great work, for ever. Imagine Beethoven, only from Von Karajan, forever in charge of the Berlin.  Or as an alternate vision, only Copland conducting his own work and not Bernstein.  Hmmm.....

[J Jonah Jameson]

Maybe Geet, but they're still not improvising.  And I tend to think people go to see a piece of classical music  because they like the tunes, not because so and so's playing this year.

I remember playing with a certain guitarist from one of The Top English Prog Bands of the '70s who only wanted to improvise, for what he said were artistic reasons, but mainly because he couldn't be arsed to learn the songs.  

I never gigged with him in the end, for a number of reasons.  He's currently gigging very, very occasionally with a band no-one's ever heard of to a handful of people who aren't there because he improvises, but because he used to play certain songs in a certain band.

[rogerg]

there's a place for bacon, and for chocolate frosting.

[Geetar]

JJJ- what you say is true for many classical fans, but after some pretty threadbare efforts by Floridian orchestras and opera companies, I don't go out to see/hear even favourite works unless I got the feeling it's going to be well-played. Even supremely great music requires decent handling, and some conductors/opera directors really are pants, and could destroy anything.

As a sidebar to the rock thing, I wouldn't pay even a couple of quid to hear Steve Howe play  anything by Yes ever again, faithfully or otherwise; but if it were e.g. Guthrie Govan, Moraz, Berlin and Bruford (fat chance...) on a very long leash improvising an instrumental "Variations on Close To The Edge" I would cough up whatever they charged without protest.

I suppose I'm in a tiny minority, but I'm tired of the auditory equivalent of endlessly resurrecting  dead horses only to beat them to the dirt with the same stick you used last time.

And rog-   what about chocolate Frosties ?

[Pedro]

Celine Dion needs to close her curtains....

[tomskerous]

Celine Dion needs to close her curtains....

We'll have none of your sauce in here young man!  :oops: