Times are a changeing...

[Krische_Jasche]

So, I've been a lurker the last month or so mainly due to me being at loss of words from listening to EIMA - it's a real blinder that one!

Now to the point: I was surfing the net and came about this page and read about the man formerly known as the man formerly known as Prince's take on the music industry:

Prince will release not one, but three albums in the new year. He's in final negotiations with "a major retailer" to distribute the music in physical form, and a highly interactive website will also provide an opportunity to buy. He's not working with a record label. "The gatekeepers have to change," he said several times throughout the evening.

It seems the great Mr. G is ahead of the game along with a select few. And with Prince on the team it certainly hasn't become any weaker!


You have my vote Jem!

[Geetar]

Yes, I read that the other day. Another sign o' the times....

[ChrisX]

Hmmm.. negotiating with a major retailer.... nothing new I believe about that. From my own memory:

Alanis Morissette released a compilation album through Starbucks
Paul McCartney's Memory Almost Full also through Starbucks
Journey's latest album was (and maybe still is) a Walmart release
Genesis released their When In Rome set also at first exclusively through Walmart or BestBuy.

And I bet there are more examples.

[RacingHippo]

A major retailer, eh?
Hope it wasn't Woolworths...

[RWA]

Hmmm.. negotiating with a major retailer.... nothing new I believe about that. From my own memory:

Alanis Morissette released a compilation album through Starbucks
Paul McCartney's Memory Almost Full also through Starbucks
Journey's latest album was (and maybe still is) a Walmart release
Genesis released their When In Rome set also at first exclusively through Walmart or BestBuy.

And I bet there are more examples.

Yep. Nothing new indeed.

Sure, times are changing but remember all those artists all ready have (had) a huge career and made a name before ever doing something like it this. They all had (the help of) record companies willing to put money into it and we learned about them listening to public radio (where the music was plugged by their record companies) and watching their (million dollar) videos on MTV etc.

Of course the artist pays for it eventually and a record company is basically just a bank trying to get their investment back + making a profit. Nothing wrong with that... but THAT's how it works.

Look, times are changing and one has to go with the flow. But it's always about someone willing to invest money into your "product" to advertise the crap out of it (again radio, TV, internet, magazines etc). There is no other way IMO.
Sure, a lot of artists got screwed by their companies (as in "could have made a lot more money") but they could never have build their career like this on their own. Meanwhile most of these artists became pretty loaded over the years so they should stop whining.

I'm getting a bit sick of these artists pretending to be "independent". I don't see them putting their own money into it; instead they shop for a retailer willing to finance it for them. There's nothing independent about that.

In fact... I dare you to name a few artists that build a career being independent from the start and still are. So that doesn't include artist that bail out of a contract and go independent from there OR independent artists that are discovered and get signed to a major label. I'm talking about artists that made it big and still are big being independent all along.

OH, good topic btw Krische_Jasche and welcome to the forum!  

[Krische_Jasche]

Good replies to this topic! I must say I agree with all that's been said, and I don't view record companies as the big bad wolf. It's only natural for man to build a business around cultural endorsements, and other things that makes one feel funny in yer tummie.

But, I do sometimes wonder if that business has become to greedy for it's own good. And if all that focus on finances is tainting the artistic side of it. I'm also becoming a bit worried about what's happening on the live concert side of the business. At least here in Norway it seems that throwing a concert is getting so costly that it's nearly impossible to make the finances go around unless you have a full-seated arena every time. This year we have seen festivals upon festivals giving up mainly due to the costs of having the artists over. This is not, I believe, the artists fault, but rather the industry pushing it so more people can earn their monthly wages.

I think it will be a change for the better if artists can find a way to reach their audience through a shorter chain. Not only for the audience, but also for the artistic side of it. We've seen loads of examples of artists becoming victims of the industry.

Oh, and by the way.. I'm not all new to the forum. Was on a bit on the last one, just haven't been active since the new one came up. But thanks any way RWA, it's an honor to be here  

[RWA]

This year we have seen festivals upon festivals giving up mainly due to the costs of having the artists over. This is not, I believe, the artists fault, but rather the industry pushing it so more people can earn their monthly wages.

I think it will be a change for the better if artists can find a way to reach their audience through a shorter chain. Not only for the audience, but also for the artistic side of it. We've seen loads of examples of artists becoming victims of the industry.

Be more specific please. You blame both matters on "The Industry". But... "The music industry" is a big place. There's record companies, tour promoters, managers, booking agencies, venue owners, studios etc. Everyone has its place in it and they're there for a reason. How do bands get gigs? How do people know band A will play in place B on what date? And how would people find out about the band in the first place? Who's gonna put it all together?

I'm not attacking you or anything. I would love to get to the bottom of this through a solid debate. It's just that blaming everything on "The Industry" is to easy and to vague at the same time.

Oh, and people downloading music for free doesn't help either. Just because stealing music, movies and software is easy doesn't make it a smaller crime. I know it's reality and I stopped fighting it a while back but "the public" is as much to blame as "the industry".

[Krische_Jasche]

Don't worry about making me feel attacked, I love a good debate and no matter what we find in the end hopefully both of us and others reading this come out of it a little bit wiser  

I can't point to one specific link in the chain, I think its all in its entirety is getting to big. The product is supporting more than people are willing to pay for it, which leads to festivals faltering. I don't know how things are going in the rest of the world, but here in Norway we have had a lot of big arrangements going down lately. And often the only way to make it go around is making it big. And the bigger it gets, the harder the fall and so on.

An extra side effect of this is that, at least on my part, the gigs seem to be less rewarding the bigger they are. The experience of seeing a great band in a small club rather than a large venue is so much more rewarding, but it's getting increasingly impossible to throw a good gig on a stage with capacity for 500 people or less.

I'm certainly not saying that piracy is the way to go. I'm rather saying I would like the artists to get more of the "bucks for the bang", and rather the system around the artists get smaller and more streamlined. In these days you don't need a huge corporation to get your product around the world.

[ChrisX]

I'm certainly not saying that piracy is the way to go. I'm rather saying I would like the artists to get more of the "bucks for the bang", and rather the system around the artists get smaller and more streamlined. In these days you don't need a huge corporation to get your product around the world.

I kinda agree with some of your points. But I also think that you are overestimating the 'hugeness' of record companies these days. I know that for instance the Dutch branch of Universal has downsized considerably over the last 2 decades and they are running their business now (quite succesfully with some of the best selling artists in our country on their roster) with what you could call a skeleton crew.

Yeah, concert ticket prices have indeed soared but there are a number of reasons for that:

1. artists still need to make a living and if they don't sell enough albums to do so they have to compensate it with earnings from gigs. From what I have read the past few years, together with licensing your music for use in commercials and games, is where the real money is being made in the music business.

2. I once heard a topguy from Sony Holland declare that he expected ticketprices to reach even higher levels then people were used to (and compared to the UK and certainly to the US they have so far been fairly moderately priced over here) stating that a concert is 'a unique event' and should be priced as such. I have to say to a certain extent he has a point.

[RWA]

Yeah, concert ticket prices have indeed soared but there are a number of reasons for that:

1. artists still need to make a living and if they don't sell enough albums to do so they have to compensate it with earnings from gigs. From what I have read the past few years, together with licensing your music for use in commercials and games, is where the real money is being made in the music business.

Don't forget the ring tone business. It's huge!
But yeah, it's that and the concert tickets that provide most of the income these days. Also there's the overall increasing of costs; something we all suffer from. Costs for renting gear, transportation, logging etc. And venue owners have to make more costs because of permits and safety regulations. The "red tape" has all ready forced a lot of venues to close down and it seems to be getting worse.




So... did anyone come up with a few names yet to this question?  

In fact... I dare you to name a few artists that build a career being independent from the start and still are. So that doesn't include artist that bail out of a contract and go independent from there OR independent artists that are discovered and get signed to a major label. I'm talking about artists that made it big and still are big being independent all along.

[/i]

[ChrisX]

In fact... I dare you to name a few artists that build a career being independent from the start and still are.

That is a tough one but I do know someone who pretty much fits the bill: Loreena McKennitt.

She is Canadian artist that started out playing mostly Celtic folk but over the years has incorporated lots of influence, mostly world-music, in her music. She started out by making cassettes, actually distributing themselves to bookstores and new age stores and subsequently selling huge amounts of them. From the start she set up her own business called Quinlan Road. She then courted several major record companies and decided on the best deal she could get that would leave her totally independent musically but also when it comes to ownership of her music. Basically, the record company was there to help her distribute the music worldwide and with promotion but again all on her terms. She pulled the strings and she would decide which route to take in that department. When her contract with WEA expired she then decided that in the day and age of the internet she didn't need them anymore and re-released her whole backcatalogue through Quinlan Road again.
She has done several major US and UK / European tours, financing them all by herself, again on her own terms. In between all of that she also regularly goes on research expeditions for her music visiting places all over the globe (Russia, Mongolia, Morocco, Spain, Italy, Greece, Turkey etc etc). On her most recent album The Ancient Muse she has returned to a more powerfull sound which can also be heard on this tune which was recorded live @ The Alhambra in Spain and available on dvd:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QpRCK1IbiE

Euh... yes... I am a fan of her music  :lol:

[Philadelphia]

Loreena McKennitt would be the first one I'd mention as independent as well. Remarkable musician, and the first gig I ever travelled abroad for alone was her London gig in 2007. It was absolutely brilliant! (:-)

[RWA]

That's a pretty good story. But......

She then courted several major record companies and decided on the best deal she could get that would leave her totally independent musically but also when it comes to ownership of her music. Basically, the record company was there to help her distribute the music worldwide and with promotion but again all on her terms. She pulled the strings and she would decide which route to take in that department. When her contract with WEA expired she then decided that in the day and age of the internet she didn't need them anymore and re-released her whole backcatalogue through Quinlan Road again.

And it was the help of the record company that boosted her career. See, I wonder how far she would've come without the distribution and promotion deal. Like, completely by herself. It's great to see she kept control over things through the years but at some point in her career she DID need the distribution and promotion channels of an established company. Once she got far enough she didn't need them any more.

See my point?  :|

It's great to see she does it all on her own now. At least that's "better" then what a lot of big shot artists are doing now. They don't need a record company any more but we would never had heard of them without it. And if Wall Mart is taking over distribution (incl. manufacturing costs of the CD's/DVD's) and promotion (Wall Mart advertises its products to you know) then it's just a substitute. Independent my ass!  :roll:

Sorry, but this one doesn't count!  
K, next example please!

[Philadelphia]

Keep in mind that this was done before the Internet days, and today it's highly unlikely that she would've needed outside help.

[Krische_Jasche]

I agree, and that's sort of what I tried to say with the topic subject. It used to be just about impossible to cut it without the record company, but nowadays it seems musicians stand a fair chance - not neccesarily alone, but at least with a smaller support system around them. This, in my point of view, is a welcome change.

I doubt we'll be able to name any artist going big without any support throughout history, but perhaps it's more likely to happen in the future?